Do you prefer Aqua or Platinum?

[Phil St. Romain]

NOTE: You do not have to post to this thread to vote. If you visit the thread, please cast your vote.

--------------------

I know it's not entirely either/or with themes and other 3rd party solutions.

BUT . . . if you had to work with one or the other, which would you prefer?

[Craig R. Arko]

Truthfully it's not that big a deal to me. I'm far more interested in what I can do with my system than what color and position the widgets have. After picking up the first couple of GUI's learning a new one just isn't that difficult.

Unless it's Luna, of course! :p Man they went out of their way to make that confusing.

[slava]

When I first started OSX, I was thinking of Aqua as clunky, over-eyecandied GUI. After half a year of non-stop working in OSX, Aqua doesn't seems so bad anymore, and frankly I cannot imagine Platinum on OSX.

A few things in Aqua still irritate me, like useless semi-transparent menus. ;)

-slava@unsanity (http://www.unsanity.com)

[edlake]

I actually don't have a preference. Since OS 9 and OS X work differently, it's useful to have a reference to where you are. I remember from my service bureau days, trying to remember exactly which operating system I was using (System 6, Windows 386:D , the one Ventura Publisher ran under [can't remember just now], DOS, CP/M, etc.

I was younger then and forgot faster.

[Craig R. Arko]

Hey, slava, you folks over at Unsanity have done some real bang-up work with the haxies, and I greatly admire your price points.

Thanks! :)

[balthisar]

Either one or the other is nice, but they're BOTH horrible when mixed! I can't wait for the day I remove Classic from my system for good!

[Thundarr]

I just changed my Aqua theme to the Smooth Stripes theme from xthemination.maccustomise.com/ . Basically it just eliminates the stripes in the Finder. It looks great with the rest of the Aqua scheme. It is a very nice theme. I switched using Duality3, which you can find on www.versiontracker.com . Great software, makes changing themes a snap. Anyway, give Aqua a little change to see if you like anything different or if you like it the way it is (Nothing wrong with that it, Aqua is very nice).

[level9]

Iridium Quicksilver since it came out. But before switching I did a little non-scientific test. I left it set to Aqua and scrolled a folder with hundreds of items in it, then switched to the built-in Graphite and scrolled the same folder...big difference. I did the same thing with a browser window and noticed a significant diffference there, too. Then switched themes and didn't look back. :D

[Thundarr]

Hey level9, I just wanted to know if you opened the window in Aqua, scrolled through the files, left the window open, changed the theme to Graphite, and then scrolled the window again?

The only reason I ask is that I have noticed that the first scroll through of a window with tons of files is often jerky, but if it has been scrolled through once, all subsequent scroll throughs are amazingly fast if the window had not been closed. I am wondering if that explains the effect you saw or if Graphite/Iridium is that much faster?

Either way, glad you found a theme you like.

[kurious]

Platinum hands down. I like the OS to be secondary (visually) to my graphic work. Aqua is like the Bozo show:) . No can do.

[level9]

Thundarr: I actually did it several times, started with Aqua, scrolled, switched to Graphite and scrolled...then back and forth several times with each. Then switched to Iridium, but never tried to see how much faster or slower it might be, I just wanted rid of the lines (among other things). :)

[vertigo]

I've been using Iridium Quicksilver for several months and I think it is the most 'usable' look for OS X. Nice on the eyes and easy to work with. Get's funky, though, when I use a carbon app that has been made to 'look' like aqua. It's like mixin' metaphors...

[Phil St. Romain]

Thundarr and others, I'm finally going to try a few themes, but want to back up my Aqua files first. I've seen it posted before, but if anyone knows where they might be, I'd appreciate a reference.

Thanks!

[Craig R. Arko]

Phil; the perl script that come with Sosumi does a bangup job of backing up the files it replaces (which is a lot of them). And you can just run the script as a backup of Aqua without actually installing Sosumi.

I also recall he included an installation FAQ that gave the file and path names that are replaced. Worth reading just for that.

I see that johnq swears by Duality as a Theme-switching tool. I haven't changed anything in a while (mildly customized Sosumi) so I haven't tried this for myself.

[Andrew LaGow]

Aqua is so much more fun for me than Platinum. I remember the pre-OS 8 days. I'd use Win95 on occasion and think: man, why doesn't the Mac have this nifty gray interface? But gray is gray. After a while it got boring. I love Aqua--it's such a breath of fresh air and I've had absolutely zero loss of productivity from Platinum to Aqua using apps that are available on both.

I haven't had this much fun with an OS since the switch from System 6.08 to System 7. And that was a good time.

Andy

[Thundarr]

Hey Craig, I have also been using Duality 3 to change themes, just to try different ones out. It works great. I liked the SilverFox and SmoothStripes themes the best (stayed with SmoothStripes).

Hi Phil. Most of the themes only replace the Extras.rsrc and the Info.plist in Finder.app. Some actually replace others, like the HIToolbox.rsrc and the BootPanel.pdf and the loginwindow.app. I shy away from those because I have customized my default icons, bootpanel and login window. Duality 3 also comes with an Aqua restore function which works well with the .theme themes. It also provides a program to download new themes. have fun trying things out.:)

[Brad Nelson]

but want to back up my Aqua files first.

I know some of those themes install as a package. And when they do they usually include an "Aqua Restore" which, in theory, can return your stuff to pristine Aqua no matter how bad you muck it up. I've had no fatal problems using themes yet (knock on silicon). Just switched to Smooth Stripes, and while I don't really care for the Aqua gel buttons or scroll bars, the switch is almost worth it due to the opaque menus (which are faster). I'd love to be able to open Sosumi and make the menus opaque and maybe change the menubar and title bars to the Smooth Stripes style. I could easily create a Frankenstein's monster but I do hope the new theme editor which is coming will let the technically-challenged people like me tinker.

[Phil St. Romain]

Well, I finally got my courage up and installed Duality 3.0.1. Went to Xthemation and downloaded a few themes. Decided to try something called SimpleX, which looked good on the web site, but which I found SimpleX-traordinarily Ugly. Decided to switch to Sosumi: spinning wheel for 5 min, system and processor maxed out, computer heating up. Force/quit Duality. But what kind of mess have I created? Better try to get Aqua back before rebooting. Duality did this fine. Rebooted, and now I've got the SimpleX splash screen, SimpleX and Aqua icons on my Finder toolbar. But everything works!

This was the kind of thing I was afraid would happen!

I do have another computer running X in Pure Aqua. Where, precisely, is that Aqua theme file? Can I just replace what I have on my iBook with the file/package on my file/package from my iMac?

Whew! Curiosity killed the cat . . . and Duality screwed up my themes. :(

Phil

[Craig R. Arko]

Brad: The app to use to make those customizations is called Sprocket. It's in pre-release 5 now, and you use it to edit the pxm# resources that are the major component of Extras.rsrc.

The guy who developed this hangs out at MacNN, and I always have to go there and hunt for the download link.

I could throw a copy on my iDisk if people are interested.

[Craig R. Arko]

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain

I do have another computer running X in Pure Aqua. Where, precisely, is that Aqua theme file? Can I just replace what I have on my iBook with the file/package on my file/package from my iMac?

Whew! Curiosity killed the cat . . .

Phil

Phil, if you just need the original Aqua resource files, I can send them to you as a .sit file and you can extract what you need. Let me know if you need the paths to where these things need to go.

Learned about all this from being burned myself! :(

[Brad Nelson]

I could throw a copy [of Sprocket] on my iDisk if people are interested

Sure, Craig. I've done a bit of resource editing in my time, but is Sprocket GUI'd enough that the cumbersome transfers and translations of what you used to have to do (for X) are eliminated or greatly simplified? Is it sort of WYSIWYG - at least a little?

Thanks.

[Craig R. Arko]

OK, go <here> (http://homepage.mac.com/crarko/FileSharing.html) and grab it. I'll leave it up for a few days but since it eats a fair amount of space probably not for too long. I'll try to find the original link meanwhile.

You still get to the actual editing in a seperate program; Photoshop or GraphicConverter.

I mostly just copy and paste resources from the various themes I've collected to build the one I like the best.

[Brad Nelson]

Got it! Many thanks, Craig, for taking the time to do that. For some strange reason IE 5.1 would stop after downloading only about 180K of it, but Navigator did the job in Classic. Go figure.

[Phil St. Romain]

Phil, if you just need the original Aqua resource files, I can send them to you as a .sit file and you can extract what you need. Let me know if you need the paths to where these things need to go.


Craig, I've got a "pure Aqua" theme going on my iMac, so if I can just copy from that to my Powerbook, that would do it.

The file path would be helpful. Thanks.

[Craig R. Arko]

Here's a start, from the 'Sosumi Installation FAQ':

"The following are names and locations for Sosumi files.

Extras.rsrc
HIToolbox.rsrc
/System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HiToolbox.framework/Versions/A/Resources/

Appearance.strings
/System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HiToolbox.framework/Versions/A/Resources/English.lproj/

aqua_blue.tiff
graphite.tiff
/System/Library/PreferencePanes/General.prefPane/Contents/Resources/

eject.icns
/System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/Resources/

Localized.rsrc
/System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj/

BootPanel.pdf
/System/Library/CoreServices/SystemStarter/QuartzDisplay.bundle/Resources/

left.pdf
right.pdf
middle.pdf
/System/Library/CoreServices/Dock/Contents/Resources/

gotoH.tif
gotoN.tif
homeH.tif
homeN.tif
loginpanel.tiff
MacOSXart.tif
resetH.tif
resetN.tif
shutdownH.tif
shutdownN.tif
/System/Library/CoreServices/loginwindow.app/Resources/"


--- From your description it sound like maybe HIToolbox.rsrc and the stuff in loginwindow.app might need to be restored.

[WillyT]

I've been using OS X since April 2001, so when I see Platinum I'm going o'potty because I shouldn't be there. I'm running XFree86 so I tried OroborOSX which looked pretty but wouldn't run the Gnome-panel correctly. Now I'm using oroborus2 which isn't the best wm but I used its Agua theme combined with Eau from OroborOSX to make an AquaX theme. I found an Aqua like gtk+ theme and put it in the Gnome-panel. I now have The Gimp looking like it actually belongs in OS X. With WindowShade installed ALL the windows work alike but some go to the dock and some to the panel when collapsed.

[Craig R. Arko]

Originally posted by WillyT
I found an Aqua like gtk+ theme and put it in the Gnome-panel. I now have The Gimp looking like it actually belongs in OS X. With WindowShade installed ALL the windows work alike but some go to the dock and some to the panel when collapsed.

Willy, can you post a link to a screen grab of that? It sounds real slick.

[Thundarr]

"now I've got the SimpleX splash screen, SimpleX and Aqua icons on my Finder toolbar."

Hi Phil, sorry that didn't work out for you. To help you get back to Aqua, I can give some hints. The icons in the Toolbar for the Finder are in the resources folder in Finder.app. It is relatively easy to replace the ones you don't want with ones you do, they are all .icns files. The splash screen change, is it the BootPanel or the LoginWindow? Either of those are easy to change by replacing the appropriate files with those you want. If you have a good version of Aqua somewhere, I can help you change the right one.

Also, I should have mentioned this earlier but some themes change more than just themes. It isn't the fault of duality, it is teh fault of the theme designer. I usually control-click the theme and see what is in the contents first. If it contains more than just the files called Extras.rsrc localized.rsrc, and Info.plist, I stay away from it because it will alter more than just the finder theme. Some themes have additonal files to change icons, BootPanels, Login Windows, etc, which can be a pain in the ass to revert if you don't like the theme.

I just downloaded SimpleX from Xthemination http://xthemination.maccustomise.com/ . On the dmg there is an Aquarestore package that should fix everything that was altered by SimpleX. Have you tried that yet?

[Phil St. Romain]

Thanks, Thundarr and Craig, for your helpful posts.

I've tried the Aqua restore, and it put me back into Aqua except for the splash screen and a few default icons in the Finder toolbar, which I can now track down and replace.

Quick question: someone above mentioned that they thought they had more speed with some themes. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed if themes make a speed difference one way or the other.

[Thundarr]

I haven't noticed any speed difference. I am using SmoothStripes, which eliminates the transparency in the menus that has been attributed in part to some slowdown. I haven't performed any benchmarks, just a general feel. Maybe other themes do allow for an increase in speed, but mine hasn't.

Good to hear that you can track down the changes. I actually used the Christmas 2001 theme and it changed a whole lot more than I wanted. Took a few hours to fix everything, so I know how you feel. I like to mess around changing themes from time to time just to see how things will look. To avoid any drastic alterations, I look inside the .theme to see what will get replaced. I also keep backups of the BootPanel, LoginWindow, Finder, MenuExtras, and the Extras.rsrc and HIToolbox.rsrc in the HIToolbox.framework just in case. Those seem to be the main targets of theme changes.

Hey, if you like Aqua (I do, just didn't like the stripes), no need to change. But if you like tweaking and playing, it can be fun, but frustrating too. Duality is the best tool so far. If theme makers would be consistent and alter only the same files, the Aqua restore function would be flawless.

[level9]

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain
I've tried the Aqua restore, and it put me back into Aqua except for the splash screen and a few default icons in the Finder toolbar, which I can now track down and replace.Dumb question, isn't everything in Extras.rsrc?

[Phil St. Romain]

Originally posted by level9
Dumb question, isn't everything in Extras.rsrc?

See Craig's reply above.

[Thundarr]

For some themes, yes, they only change the Extras.rsrc file, so everything will be in Extras.rsrc.

But some themes actually change the HIToolbox.rsrc, the loginwindow, the BootPanel, the Finder Toolbar icons, and the Dock. A good way to tell what the theme will alter, in the absence of a description from the theme designer, is to control click open the contents of the .theme file to see the names of all the files it will change. Or, if it is a package, use Pacifist to see inside.

Always use caution when changing a theme. A general Aqua restore function, like that in Duality, may only change back the Extras.rsrc files. I also make sure I use themes in which the theme designer has made an Aqua restore theme package specific for the theme I wish to substitute. And I backup all the above mentioned files first in case I manually have to go back and restore the original files.

[level9]

Ah thanks, I'm using IridiumQuicksilver and the only thing it changed is Extras.rsrc. I originally asked because I have an original Extras.rsrc on my idisk, amazing how many people never bothered to back that up when switching themes. :D

[WillyT]

Gee I don't really know where to upload a screenshot. But here are links to the AquaX Theme (http://www.themes.org/resources/520/) and Oroborus Home Page (http://www.kensden.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Oroborus/) .

You will have to play around with the oroborus2 config and edit the Agua theme a little to get it looking just right. In particular I made the sides and bottom look selected all the time. And I took the resizer from the Eau theme for OrborOSX. The Oroborus screenshot doesn't do it justice.

The AquaX theme plugged right in to the Gnome-panel as is.

Be careful both oroborus2 and the gnome-panel are on the unstable tree from fink.

[WillyT]

The good people at ResExcelence posted my screenshot (http://www.ResExcellence.com/snapshots/snaps_html/02-01-02_Traver.shtml)

btw this is The Gimp running in XWindows. It was compiled using Fink.

[dshafer]

I was having a bit of trouble with OS X that I couldn't quite put my finger on. Then today I found myself with a bunch of windows open in Word:x as I was trying to use Help to figure out how to do something. It hit me. There was no clear, discernible break between title bars of windows and document panes. It was kind of a big jumble.

I noodled a bit and wondered if reducing the contrast on my flat screen would help. I had it cranked up to nearly 100% for my work in Classic.

Well, what a huge difference. Probably everyone here but me already knew this. It appears Aqua is designed to work much better in a low-contrast environment.

Now I'm really much happier i Aqua than I thought I'd be!

[Phil St. Romain]

I'm really surprised by the results of this poll. Maybe it says as much about this forum as anything, but on others where I've participated, it seemed that hardly anyone liked Aqua, and that most graphic pros detested it..

Come to think of it, however, if not for 3rd party helps like Kaleidoscope, one was pretty much stuck with Platinum on OS 9. So the reliance on 3rd party themes is not that different for some variation in OS X. There were more color themes to work with, but all within the Platinum scheme of things. Font configuration was better; as I recall, that didn't really happen to a significant degree until OS 8 in 1997.

What this all means, I guess, is that with the exception of font choices for the ui, the situation we have with Aqua is pretty much what we had with Platinum. If one didn't like Platinum, there weren't really any alternatives provided by Apple--like reverting to the old System 7 look, for example.

All just musings, fwiw.

[sao]

Craig,

Thanks, for uploading Sprocket to your iDisk.

Cheers...

[Andrew LaGow]

Phil, it depends on where you go as to whether or not you get a graphics pro who likes Aqua. Go on over to MacNN and they think it's fine, for the most part. Go to MacFixIt OS X Talk and fahgetaboutit--they hate it. But I don't have to tell you that.

I am often in the Adobe user-to-user forums, which are populated exclusively with graphics pros, and they largely think OS X is fine--most of them seem to be chomping at the bit for Photshop 7 so they can abandon OS 9 altogether and live in bliss on OS X with InDesign and Illustrator.

You can't let some of the extremely vocal minority let you think an entire population feels one way or another. I don't understand where all the acrimony comes from--it makes absolutely no sense to me. Seems completely irrational to keep harping on the same things over and over, sort of like the P.G. Wodehouse character in a Jeeves novel who comes down the stairs one morning muttering, "Eggs, eggs, damn all eggs!" I mean, you like 'em or you don't and get on with your life.

In the meantime, just as we discussed a few months ago, the apps are starting to come in, the OS will mature and since my reinstall the world is certainly rose colored. Bring on Photoshop and I'll be in OS 9 even less than I am now, which is maybe once every couple of weeks. More when I'm forced to use Quark. Well, "forced" is perhaps the wrong word--I do love that program--but InDesign is looking pretty tasty lately.

Oh, I do ramble on, don't I?

Andy

[Phil St. Romain]

Andy, that's why I like the polls we have here. People can vote and not even leave a comment, and as you see, Aqua is very popular. I suspect we're not a prime site for graphic pros, but they're by no means the majority of Mac users, and my guess is that they are proportionately represented here (lerkfish, as you may know, is a graphics pro). Given the fact that the majority of posts on this board are troubleshooting related, I don't think it can be said that all who come here are only having positive experiences: therefore, they like Aqua.

Anyway, as we both know, there's already sufficient configurability for anyone to make the gui look like they want it to. If one needs grey, make it grey; not stripes, get an unlined theme; no dock, hide it, etc. Those who gripe about having to use 3rd party apps to do this . . . well, maybe they just like to gripe? :rolleyes: I don't know. It seems to me if you can have a better user experience by using 3rd party apps, then why not? And if the OS allows for this to happen, then that says something, too.

There, you see that I can ramble, too!

Phil

[Andrew LaGow]

Phill, I couldn't agree with you more. What's so different between messing with an OS X skin and OS 9's Kaleidoscope? And here's the kicker: the Aqua theme for Kaleidoscope was *extremely* popular, in spite of Apple's efforts to banish it from the Web (it even had transparent menus!). Somebody also came up with an Aqua Appearance theme.

And let's be clear on Platinum: it was a direct response to Windows 95. Aqua may not be interface nirvana, but it least it's trying to take us there. Time will tell whether or not it succeeds, but at least it's not boring!

Andy

[Phil St. Romain]

Well over 100 votes now, and over 1,100 page views!

I think we can say that the verdict is in on this one--namely, that an overwhelming number of OS X users prefer Aqua over Platinum. One would never get this impression from some of the other Mac forums.

Oh, I'm sure some who don't like Aqua would say that our poll results are flawed inasmuch as it's presumed that those who come and post here really like OS X. But I don't buy that at all, considering that help requests constitute the majority of posts on this board. People posting help requests aren't always favorably inclined to the OS at the moment.

I hardly ever have to use Classic any more, much less reboot into OS 9, but every time I do, I wonder why anyone would prefer Platinum over Aqua. It just seems drab and boring to me, not to mention lacking in many of the features I've come to enjoy in OS X.

Phil

[synner]

Aqua with SmoothStripes for me all the time now. Platinum looks dated I'm afraid, however functional it is.

:)

[bahamutX]

yeah, Aqua is nice. Although Platinum is better than then some 1una

[a1291762]

I prefer Platinum to Aqua because the former is functional and fast. I don't mind having colored buttons and round windows, but I do mind all the useless CPU-wasting eye candy that Aqua has.

I currently use the sosumi theme which is based on platinum but looks 'newer'. I also use WindowShade X to disable shadows and add a border to my windows.

[Phil St. Romain]

Someone help me out on this one, for I've heard the crticism of "CPU-wasting eye candy" before and am not sure what it means.

Right now, I'm looking at CPU monitor, and when I stop typing, my CPU goes to rest--oh, maybe 4% CPU/System usage, combined. When I open or close a window, it spikes to about 25% for the 1/8 second it takes the window to open, then it goes back to rest.

Is that spike what the fuss is all about? Does this really place such a strain on a computer? Does this really slow down your computer? Sorry, I just don't get it.

Someone give me an example of how Aqua slows things down so I'll understand what this fuss is all about.

[durandal64]

Try resizing an Explorer window.

[Phil St. Romain]

Originally posted by durandal64
Try resizing an Explorer window.

The problem is that Explorer uses live resizing instead of outline resizing. Try resizing an Appleworks, Photoshop, Eudora, or Golive window in OS X. They all use outline resizing so the window outline moves smoothly with the mouse, and the window snaps to size when you let go. Most OS 9 apps use outline resizing. In fact, none that I know of use live resizing. That would be the fair comparison.

Developers don't have to write apps for live resizing, but quite a few have chosen to do so for OS X. I'm not sure why, but, whatever the case, the lag in resizing seems to diminish with the more higher-powered processors.

------------

So back to you, or anyone else. What's the big deal about "CPU-wasting eye candy"? Where's the big waste? OS X is just as snappy on my pismo and iMac as OS 9. See the thread about OS X speed, and note that just as many think OS X is as fast as OS 9.

[RacerX]

With a majority of clients using classic, with a majority of my primary systems running some version of Rhapsody, Platinum seems to be what I see the most. After a long day (or weekend) at home on Mac OS X/Mac OS 9 (with the Aqua theme) I get used to the window controls being in a certain place. I still think Apple should have released the Aqua theme as part of the files that Mac OS X installs in Mac OS 9 for the Classic environment.

[sao]

Classic ? What's classic ?

Oh, yeah, I remember, a long time ago...

Since 10.1 came out, used it once, and it felt like going back in time to a forgotten land, in prehistoric times.

BTW, Hi RacerX, glad to see you here, no go more to the land of macosx.com ?


Cheers...

[RacerX]

The Press3 thing was just too much to take... I felt used. And after watching three threads on the subject of Press3 (with both Jadey and myself posting in them) getting deleted, I thought it was time to move on. My time is better spend here than there I think. At least there doesn't seem to be anything to hide here. :D

[Craig R. Arko]

Yes, we goosestep to the beat of a different drummer here. Feel free to invite some of your old comrades to stop in. Maybe we can get a Newton thread going for the Admiral. :D

Several of us felt similarly about those guys, and a few other places which have gone that way too. I either help people to help people, or bill out at full rate. Doing it to make someone else money just don't cut it.

[sao]

You are right. I never felt the 'Press3 thing' interesting at all. Never contributed there.

I still ocasionally drop by the old 'Unix side of MacOS X' threads. Some fink helping here and there...

"Home" since quite some time has been 'MacOS X Hints forums', the best place to be if I want to learn about X.

Again, welcome and enjoy your stay.

Cheers...

[sao]

Craig,

Forget it, if you invite AdmiralAK, he is famous for posting hundreds of silly posts just for getting his count up (waste of time). Can't stand those kind of users.

Till now, this is one of the few forums where I haven't seen that kind of atittude.


Cheers...

[Craig R. Arko]

Sao: what do you mean, 'til now? ;)

The only kind of users I really dislike are those who are rude to people trying to help. For them I've got some short piers to hike off...

[mervTormel]

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain
Someone help me out on this one, for I've heard the crticism of "CPU-wasting eye candy" before and am not sure what it means.

Right now, I'm looking at CPU monitor, and when I stop typing, my CPU goes to rest--oh, maybe 4% CPU/System usage, combined. When I open or close a window, it spikes to about 25% for the 1/8 second it takes the window to open, then it goes back to rest.

Is that spike what the fuss is all about? Does this really place such a strain on a computer? Does this really slow down your computer? Sorry, I just don't get it.

Someone give me an example of how Aqua slows things down so I'll understand what this fuss is all about.
phil, i'm probably going to butcher this pretty good, but i'll talk about how a process runs and other esoteria...

our OS (and many others) are said to be 'interrupt driven'. just moving the mouse sends events to the kernel that queue up for processing. I/O interrupts (mouse, keyboard, disk, ethernet, video) have to be dealt with at the cost of processing your Excel "budget-2002" line item 'total commute ersatz coffee consumption'.

that is to say, the kernel is going to service I/O interrupts before it gets around to calculating your beverage consumption while driving. there are a lot of timing tricks to get everything orchestrated for an overall smooth experience. it's really quite amazing how it all works.


eye-candy costs huge processor cycles. but not when idle; then, the processing has already been done and the video buffer just gets pushed to the screen (at 85Hz by a dedicated chip, for example). but when anything changes in a 'layer', say, an app like console has a window open and a message comes in, the window has become 'dirty' and needs to be updated. no big deal. but, if that window moves, then all the visible shadows and candy have to get updated, too. that costs some cycles, perhaps stolen from some other cpu intensive app, like compiling xfree86.

if you start a two-hour compile, and go back to browsing CNN, and move some windows around, you'll notice the chop. now, quartz is going to try and give you a smooth and satisfying overall experience, at the cost of stealing precious cycles from the compile and/or any other process that needs the CPU and is runnable. all superceded by I/O interrupts.

the kernel is configured to schedule processes to run for a finite slice of time, called a quantum. i see the default quantum in OSX is 10,000 µs ? hmm, seems high...

$ dmesg | grep quantum
standard timeslicing quantum is 10000 us

when a process has tasks to do, it becomes runnable or 'computable', and is 'scheduled' by the kernel for a quantum. now, when a process gets scheduled to run, it can run for its full quantum or until it requests I/O.

when you're compiling xfree86 and browsing CNN.com and notice the 'chop', your rig is said to be 'compute bound'. that is, there are more runnable tasks in the compute queue than there are CPU cycles to handle it.

if you have a CPU monitor thermometer visible, you'll see it lit up like a hanukkah bush or 'pedal to the metal'.

so, quartz is a more costly display engine than quickdraw, but the superior unix kernel helps to even it out, and for single seat, single engine rigs, it's probably not such a big deal and the benefit is a stunning visual experience.

hope that helps, or at least doesn't hurt too much. also, if anyone catches any bogosity in the above, please point it out.

[Phil St. Romain]

Thanks, merv. That's what I thought people meant by that phrase about "eye candy hogging the cpu," and your post confirmed it nicely. ;)

Seriously, I did follow that somewhat, and it only makes sense that the more visual info the processor has to handle, the slower things go. Only, in this day and age, we're generally talking much faster processors with lots of RAM, which pushes those little stripes, colored buttons and drop shadows through quickly and efficiently. I don't have benchmarks to show, but on my pismo and iMac (both 500 mhz), OS X feels just as snappy as OS 9. And when it comes to multi-tasking, it's no contest: X wins hands down. Besides, I've tried stripeless themes and cutting out the shadows and didn't like it. So I'll gladly take the "eye candy," for the looks and because I don't notice any performance hits from it.

[mervTormel]

phil, that's exactly what it comes down to. most computing is a series of tradeoffs. what is one willing to trade for what one wants?

high usability, high performance, high availability, high integrity, high security, high accessability. these are goals of which we trade among. i see reasonably high levels of all these criteria on this sawtooth G4/500.

i'm always boggled by statements like "i wish my browser was faster" faster, how? how fast can you absorb a page of information? it's not very useful computing to scroll a fifty page document as fast as you can. what useful work are you doing?

some people never develop any patience or reasonable computing habits, and their complaints are always "it's too slow."

i consider other OS's an eye-sore, even moreso now, with OSX and quartz and silk. i gladly relinquish the electrons required for such a hansome interface.

[RacerX]

In my case, I have Rhapsody 5.1 on two systems running with Pentiums at 133 MHz, and Rhapsody 5.6 running on my Wall Street at 266 MHz. Rhapsody using a platinum theme and Display Postscript to render the images runs great on all (though better on the PowerBook with 4 MB of VRAM vs the 2 MB I have on the ThinkPad). And yes, all my Rhapsody systems seem faster than my iMac running at 350 MHz (with 8 MB of VRAM).

What we are missing is the cost that Apple consumers haven't had to pay. Display Postscript is expensive, and Adobe has charged quite a lot for it in the past (it has been used in such operating systems as NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Rhapsody and Solaris) and was the chief reason (on top of the BSD license) for the astronomical cost of the NeXT operating systems. By developing Display PDF, Apple removed Adobe's license from the cost of Mac OS X (GNUstep has been trying to do the same type of thing by creating Display Ghostscript, but without as much luck). Aspects of Display PDF are not as fast as the time tested and tried Display Postscript (which wasn't asked to do half the things Apple is having Quartz do today), but the trade offs were more than justified (unless you count Adobe's delays of releasing Photoshop for Mac OS X as part of them :D ).

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by mervTormel
i consider other OS's an eye-sore, even moreso now, with OSX and quartz and silk. i gladly relinquish the electrons required for such a hansome interface.
Mmmmmmm... Silk...

[sao]

I'm in love with Silk too !!


Craig,

Correction from my previous post: "This is one of the few forums where I haven't seen that kind of atittude." :)


Craig wrote:The only kind of users I really dislike are those who are rude to people trying to help. For them I've got some short piers to hike off...

I agree with you Craig. Those who post only for the sake of posting are being rude to those who are really in search of help and to those who are trying to help.

I would have them take a hike off a short pier too...:)


Cheers...

[Phil St. Romain]

i'm always boggled by statements like "i wish my browser was faster" faster, how? how fast can you absorb a page of information? it's not very useful computing to scroll a fifty page document as fast as you can. what useful work are you doing?]

Exactly! Or, better, that it takes a window too long to open--like maybe .67 seconds instead of .62, or whatever. I didn't even mind the delay in opening applications in the pre-10.1 period, when they bounce-bounce-bounced forever. The interface advantages were worth it.

I think the real test comes when one works in another interface: OS 9/Platinum, Windows, some Unix gui. What does it feel like? Several have used words like bland, boring, etc., to which I concur.

[AdmiralAK]

I prefer neither really :)
I wish to have more options :D
(aahh kaleidoscope where art thou ?!)

[sao]

AdmiralAK,

Hi there! Wow, it looks like all of macosx.com are coming this way now.

Welcome, and enjoy your stay.

Hope you race your number of posts by meaninful additions.


Cheers...

[nkuvu]

I have to say -- I like the new brushed metal look (like the one in iTunes 3) a lot more than the old.

[Jacques]

If you like the brushed look, definately check out this complete brushed overhaul (http://macmotiva.rocks.it/), it's gorgeous.

Just don't let Jaguar in on it, may break..

Jacques