If I Bend Over, Will Someone Please Kick Me?

[Andrew LaGow]

Why, oh why did I go back to MFI and engage in my very first (and I hope last) flame war with the obsessives over in OS X Talk? I can't believe I let myself get drawn in--me, who longs for the quiet life--but my ridiculous sense of justice in a forum gone mad overtook my better judgement.

Sigh. I think Thundarr deserves a medal--he still goes over there and fights the good fight. Me, I give up. Again.

Now excuse me while I go bonk my head against the wall. (thunk! thunk!)

Andy

[Phil St. Romain]

I popped back in to say goodbye to Brad, looked around, and even saw you going at it with the gang, Andy.

So here you go: B-O-O-T!! :D

"Keep coming back, it works if you work it."

[lerkfish]

in college, I once asked a girl I was dating why she ran marathons...she said "because it feels so good when I stop".

;)

[Craig R. Arko]

"Thank you, sir. May I have another?"

---
BTW, Andy, look at the bright side. You could have to work with those people. Don't you feel better now? :p

[Andrew LaGow]

Phil--ouch! Thank you!

Craig, that is a frightening perspective. Yow!

Not trying to be a complainer or or anything, but I work by myself these days and as much as I like it I find Internet forums a nice distraction. It's fun and it keeps me from talking to myself too much. It's sad when you go somewhere and folks immediately jump down your throat the moment you voice an opinion counter to the prevailing regime.

I simply can not understand why some people will not accept the fact that there are people who believe that OS X is a damn fine OS, albeit not without problems related to growing pangs. Seems like there's room enough in ths world for everybody. Where do these silly vulgar pejorative labels like "crap settlers" come from? Are they that threatened?

Sheesh.

Andy

[Thundarr]

Hey Andy, your judgement was good and your motives excellent, but there are some over there who just won't be reasoned with. And it is hurting MFI. Like you said over there, OSX Talk is just a pissing contest. There are some there that will never see an opposing opinion because it isn't their agenda. It is difficult to convince a log to see your side of things if you know what I mean. My only hope is to keep offering that opposing opinion in case people who want to try OSX are reading. Just to let them know it isn't the horror that is bandied about there. I don't engage in changing anyone's demeanor, I take my shots when I can. Just to let them know the guns can fire.

Unfortunately, too many people who have great insight have disappeared from the forum. Many of the anti-OSX crowd are starting to leave too. Probably because they have so few to antagonize. I am hoping this means new blood will arrive and brighten up the dialogue. I encourage everyone to participate, even old members. The accusational ones have left, so conflict of interest shouldn't be insinuated anymore.

Over here is great too. I like to come here for soothing and calm. Kudos to the moderators for keeping everything well balanced.:)

[Phil St. Romain]

Just FYI, none of the moderators on this forum have anything bad to say about other Mac forums. No siree! Nothing bad at all! None, zero, zilch! :cool:

(Fire away, Thundarr! :D)

[Andrew LaGow]

Like I said, Thundarr, you deserve some kind of medal or something because you're certainly going above and beyond the call. Me, I've removed MFI from my bookmarks list because I'm just tired of all the narrow-minded bullying.

I definitely like it over here--it's now starting to reach a sort of critical mass, I think. What sets OS X Hints apart from everywhere else is the grownup to raving-lunatic ratio. Ahhhhh...I can feel myself calming down even now...

The true mystery about this place, however, is what comes after "Triple-A Player" and when does one reach this next plateau? And at one point do I make it The Show?

Andy

[lerkfish]

practice, practice, practice. ;)

[xchanyazy]

Somewhere between 73 and 346 posts. Not sure on the number, I just know that you can't be cool until you are a Major Leaguer :D

[mervTormel]

andy, no worries. opinions are like... that guy just loves to hear himself talk. he's what Robert Heinlein called a 'yammerhead'. they go to great lengths to deny any joy in others. always throwing pitches in the dirt.

thundarr, kudos to you for your masochism and tenacity. just don't swing at those dirt pitches. get to our corner and tag me in before they use a folding chair on your cranium.


what's after major leaguer? colonel (kernel) flapgums. then there's general annoyance. the peter principle then dictates the title 'rear admiral'.

generally speaking, fancy titles and nightshirts are a waste of time.

and never miss a good chance to shut up.

cheers to the high s/n ratio that is here.

[Thundarr]

"Never miss a good chance to shut up."

Excellent advice mervTormel. I will try and apply it in my MFI visits. I will stick it out over there in addition to my visits here. I think any positive addition I can make will help someone, so it is worth it. The key I think is to say what you want to say and make reasonable points, without engaging in the dirty part of the game. Sometimes you have to get a little dirty to defend yourself, but, you are right, usually the best option is to let it go and shut up.

I never have to do that over here. This site truly does epitomize the Mac way. Always friendly, always helpful. Good to see you are a moderator, excellent free agent addition to the team.

[Andrew LaGow]

merv, speaking of "that guy," my original intention going up against him was to throw all the silly design jargon he uses back at him or at least demonstrate that this sort of nonsense can be used to facilitate an argument from either point of view. I get irritated when one person claims to be the arbiter of taste or judgement for anything. I'm not sure I achieved that, but I gave it the old college try.

The fact is, I agree with him on many counts--IF we were talking about a brochure or some other printed matter. I think a computer interface is a different beast altogether. Yes, certain design priciples hold true in either case, but I also believe the fact that the overwhelming majority of X users seem to enjoy Aqua validates many of Apple's decisions. It's a fresh look and I enjoy living in it.

Does that mean there's no room for improvement? Of course not. But labeling people "crap settlers" because they have different tastes is offensive. Not that it makes any difference to the few at MFI.

Okay, I'm done with the negativity (deep breath)...and I'm one step closer to being whatever comes after "Triple-A-Player!"

Andy

[Phil St. Romain]

There are several assumptions implicit in the posts of many who are adamantly opposed to OS X, and there seems to be no countering them with facts or contrary experiences. Here are a few of the most common:

1. Apple has made a huge mistake in using NeXT as the basis for OS X. There's too much of NeXT in OS X. The Mac community will never go for it.

2. It's too hard to learn to use.

3. You have to know Unix to use OS X.

4. The OS 9 Finder was superior and had more features.

5. There's only a neglible difference now between Mac OS and Windows.

6. Aqua is unsuitable for pro users and if someone likes it, they must not be a pro user.

7. OS X is unbearably slow.

8. The Dock is a nuisance, always getting in the way, even when hidden.

9. Apple lost market share last year because of OS X.

10. Aqua is a disaster of an interface--very user-unfriendly (just don't ask for specific examples).

None of these are really completely true; quite the contrary, in almost every case. But when you consider that some people accept pretty much all of the above as gospel truth, and are committed to shouting down anyone who has an opinion or experience to the contrary, you can see why dialogue and discussion becomes just impossible.

That won't happen here. Opinions and experiences both positive and negative are welcomed, but we provide no home for anyone with an axe to grind again and again and again. I'm confident I speak for all the moderators in making this point.

Phil

[Craig R. Arko]

Definition: "crap-settle":

(v) To participate in 150+ post threads arguing the semantics of what insulting name to call each other. :rolleyes:

I've reformed. :D Haven't many of us?

[Thundarr]

I would like to reform, but apparently I am a crap settler and cannot accept the better alternative.:)

I keep up the fight because I know new users are lurking, I once was in that same position. And since I was helped by the good folks here who put up the same fight, I feel that someone (me) should keep up the tradition. So, up go the sleeves, on go the boots, and into the manure pile I go. If I help even one person, the deed has been fulfilling.

[Craig R. Arko]

I admire your patience.

It has a certain Winston Churchill-like character. :)

[Andrew LaGow]

Thundarr, as much as I admire your courage and endurance I think there's a certain sense of Darwinian justice, if you will, in the idea that Mac OS X Talk may asphyxiate as a result of the grip a few very dogged bullies have over the context of discussion.

Anyone lurking who disagrees with them had best hightail it over here or somewhere else, because the next person who says, "I like the stripes," is going to get the business, if you know what I mean.

It's not fair to Ted Landau, I suppose, but preventing that kind of nonsense is what I thought moderators are for. For the good of that forum, someone had best step in and restore some sense of civility. On the other hand, as I alluded above, there are plenty of alternatives.

Andy

[Thundarr]

I agree Andy. Moderation has been lacking over there, and if present would have allowed the forum to be an excellent source of information, discussion, entertainment. I think that we are certainly at a bottleneck in its evolution. The mud slinging has eliminated a great part of the population and a few remain to propagate or perhaps just die out. I don't mind sticking it out to the end though, maybe there would be a turn around. There are some good characters who have recently popped up. And I still find it very humorous. It is all a moot point anyway, OSX is here to stay for the foreseeable future, so the X-critics are just beating themselves (use all the associations you wish on that verb).

Craig, I am humbled by any connection to Winston Churchill. One main difference is that his challenge was actually doable. Changing the X-critics, impossible. The only fight is the one to give the opposing view point, which I humbly submit mine in a meager attempt.

[Craig R. Arko]

Hey, Thundarr! I saw your thread over at Earth's last bastion of openminded and balanced thinking (http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/333.html) concerning the MacWorld poll.

What do you think the discussion would have been like if the poll had produced the "correct" (i.e. their) results instead of the results it actually had?

I'm thinking you'd be seeing a lot of 'mandate of the people' posts instead of the 'hey you can't trust that sample space' posts. :rolleyes:

Your thoughts?


BTW - loved the HeckleWorks program; you should post links like that here where people actually still give a hoot. :p

[Phil St. Romain]

I saw that poll and the pertinent discussion being referenced, too. The thing I don't understand about some of the naysayers is how they get off so easily accusing Macworld of having sold out. I mean, aren't those readers from the "Mac" world? If the "Mac" world is so upset about OS X, where's the evidence outside a few whiners on Mac forums. Everytime we actually put the pencil to these kinds of things (e.g., Aqua vs. Platinum survey, which is faster survey, etc.), OS X comes out shining.

[Craig R. Arko]

Ah, yes. And on the other subject of numbers of graphics 'Pro' users; I'd estimate 15% tops. With the larger majority in homes, K-12 and higher Ed, University Labs, and a large contingent in non-profs and small business running FileMaker, 4D, Office and AppleWorks. Also a fair number of MD's and JD's, and for a long time, Chiropractors (although not so much any more).

And then there's the 20-some odd old Macs I got stacked in my living room besides the ones I use. :D


Good thing we don't hang out there any more, isn't it, Phil?

[Thundarr]

Hey Craig. I'll bet if the "correct" answer were revealed by the poll, we would be eating the 'I told you so' crow by the shovel full. Instead, the poll seems to point out that the situation may be far from dire. SInce that is contrary to what the naysayers want to hear, they do everything possible to diminish the poll. The same way they do everything to diminish posters when they offer contrary opinions. Responses like "it's a techie poll", or "a high number of repondents said OSX was fast so it can't be legit" always bring a chuckle.

I found humor in the statement that OSX Talk is the one refuge where OSX critics could speak their opinions without being flamed, ridiculed, labeled, etc. Yet that is the same that is dished out by those who claim such refuge there. Quite funny.

I agree that every time a poll is given, the results tend to show a positive trend for OSX. That is only going to be strengthened as time goes by and the hardware really starts to shine with the software. But, if someone doesn't like OSX and the direction it is headed, there is always the option to not use it or switch platforms. Or to actually complain to Apple, now there is a novelty.

I would like to know what the industry breakdown truly is. The argument that such-and-such group saved Apple in the dark days and thus are owed by Apple is specious. No one saved Apple but Apple.

Anyway, the MFI forum sure does provide a handful of entertainment in the least.

[Thundarr]

What I also find telling is that I started two posts. One allowing posters to describe what they enjoy about OSX and its possibilities. And one that clearly is designed to allow the two sides to continue fighting. Which do you think has the more posts and the higher survival rate? That reflects on the fact that the forum is definitely a place where destructive is valued over constructive.

[Phil St. Romain]

Right, Craig! I couldn't have lasted any longer as there wasn't any real threading going on among many of the regulars, whom I see are still out there "holding forth." It was good to see that my young college friend, Joe, did some admirable butt-kicking the few days he showed up.

Hiya Thundarr! Good to see you still hanging around here. And I do enjoy reading your interactions at MFI X-talk as well. Bloody good show! :)

[Thundarr]

Hi Phil. Nice to know you are still reading. I did like the reappearance of macsRcool and Spheric. Added a little more balance to a decidedly slanted forum presence. djn1 and Homer are also giving some new life to the forum. And, in all fairness, there are a few new moderate X-critics that enliven the debate with excellent commentaries that do not deviate into the usual absurdities. I was wavering on limiting my presence there a few weeks ago, but the inclusion of some fresh voices makes it a better place to hang for awhile.

But all the topics are still relatively old ground. I am hoping the emergence of Jaguar will bring a new perspective to the issues. And, of course, new data on users will only spice up the debate more as the critics realize that more and more people are actually finding OSX a good system to use.

[AKcrab]

What forum are we discussing? I clicked a link earlier in the thread, but the forum there seemed almost totally devoid of any mac life.

[Thundarr]

That sounds like the right place. But here is the link to MFI OSX Talk (http://www.macfixitforums.com/php/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Forum26) just in case. For most, it will be like driving by the scene of an accident.

[mervTormel]

for some, it will be like riding in a two-hour train wreck, carrying a baseball bat, asking the kiddies to beat you on the head.

[AKcrab]

It was like sitting in a traffic jam, 120 degree heat, broken A/C... Enough of that. Why are people so resistant to change?

[Craig R. Arko]

I'll just let the timeless wisdom of Steve Jobs (http://www.surveyjunkie.com/jobs.html) express my feelings on that fine vista. :D

[mervTormel]

gufaw! and snort! that is LOL funny.

AKcrab, change requires learning; it is the learning that some (most?) are resistant to. Darwinism in action. boy, our pet OS has loaded connotations.

[Thundarr]

AKcrab, in some cases, I don't think the excessive complaining comes from resistance to change. It comes from living life angry and wanting to strike out when something occurs that doesn't conform to the way it was expected to have turned out. I think there are many angry people over there, angry about their life or their lack of control, and they need to make others feel bad, so they themselves can feel good and in control. Bullies, really. It doesn't even have to be OSX, they would find some other place to exhort their bullying. Except they are the most cowardly of bullies as they do it from the anonymity of cyberspace. Look at the tenor of some of the posts. They are meant to strike, not discuss. In some of them, I can feel the insidious need to dig into other people just oozing from the posts. But I do find it fairly enlightening to attempt to weather it, find out if it turns me darker or keeps me in the light. The old X-men sure had some grit.

[AKcrab]

Merv and Thundarr, that's some great insight. The only reason I ever visit a forum is to learn something. I meet enough angy people in "real life", I suppose it should be no suprise that their attitudes spill over to the cyber world. Sad really.
I just don't have the energy to spend playing their games, when there are wonderful oportunities to be had with decent forums like this one.
I admit, I do go to another forum fairly regularly, but I can't get enough of the warm fuzzies from helping folks here. I must say, I believe the post/solution ratio here is extremely high. Anyone keep track of such things? The reason I keep going back to the other forum is the random tidbits of information that can be picked up from some of the decent members (lerkfish for example) and the pure volume of information it can offer.
Anyhoo... Don't want to derail this thread, but a serious "Hat's Off" to all you moderators here.

[Craig R. Arko]

Yes, Thun, True Grit (http://classicfilm.about.com/library/sounds/lowerlip.wav). ;)

AK, there is some pretty good stuff to be found at NN too, but you really have to pull weeds to get at some of it. I wonder if moki would pay us a visit? Maybe even Sal.

[mervTormel]

yep, Thundarr makes a lot of good points there.

and kudos to the question askers, too! without them, we'd be dodging tumbleweeds. and kudos to the other contributors. and to all of you for keeping a high signal to noise ratio.

[Andrew LaGow]

Thundarr, you got it right: bullies. There is no excuse for a lot of what goes on there. The personal attacks that don't even pass for rational arguments, the ridicule, the downright nastiness. These are the tactics of the intellectually dishonest (and I'm being kind here). It's a high school clique over there as nearly as I can tell, and it seems to be their "duty" to pound the hell out of anyone coming over there who thinks differently from them, over and over again.

And don't get me started about the attitude/hubris that is being passed for knowledge/talent. I have run into that time and time again in a lengthy career as an art director in New York and those types are easy to spot. They talk the talk and it's always interesting to see if they have the talent to back it up (rarely). "Pro" users my ass; professionals just do not carry themselves that way--unless, of course, they are compensating for something...

I recently went back there again because I have a strange fascination with a banned personality who has been posting extensively in another forum (http://www.macaddict.com/forums/Forum10/HTML/004583-2.html). I am beginning to understand his argument that the moderation at MFI is either biased or absent. It seems to me that it's just becoming another Usenet free-for-all.

Ugh. Here I am ranting again when I promised myself I wouldn't.

Andy

[edit] P.S. I don't want to come off here as a one-note sour-grapes type--and re-reading this post, it sure does seem like iit! It just irked me to no end to have people crusading over there for all graphics pros when we're actually a fairly diverse lot. I don't know one designer I've spoken to yet who feels as utterly betrayed by Apple as those folks. Quite the contrary.

[Phil St. Romain]

Originally posted by baryonyx
[B]Thundarr, you got it right: bullies. There is no excuse for a lot of what goes on there. The personal attacks that don't even pass for rational arguments, the ridicule, the downright nastiness. These are the tactics of the intellectually dishonest (and I'm being kind here). It's a high school clique over there as nearly as I can tell, and it seems to be their "duty" to pound the hell out of anyone coming over there who thinks differently from them, over and over again.

My evaluation as well, expressed most concisely.

What a strange kind of phenomenon, when you stop and think about it. I suppose there are angry people in this world who need some place to flex their muscles and show their power. I guess it doesn't matter that this is done concerning a new computer operating system. And Steve Jobs also makes for a compelling targe, doesn't he? ;)

Phil

[lerkfish]

I've made the observation privately that it is like "Lord of the flies", in that it is essentially a desert island onto which have been shipwrecked a group of young boys. What happens after that is with the absence of consistent rules, they start pairing off into pecking orders, with the most ruthless and sadistic being the most influential in one group, and the most interested in order in the other.
Of, course, basically the most ruthless have pushed out the most interested in order...so they're all that's left, and that's how they like it.
Its a group dynamic that centers on their dislike for OSX, but the OS is incidental to the group dynamic.

[lerkfish]

just last night I went to visit there, having not visited for a long time, left a note about my MO drive working again.
I read in the "thalo" thread....same old stuff. Its interesting though that even moderate X-critics are becoming a little tired of the insulting rhetoric.

[Thundarr]

Hey Andy,

Saw you over there again, this time stayin' outta trouble. Good for you. My boot is ready though. :)

lerkfish, nice observation. There is a tedium that has begun to wear on even some of the x-critics. It is difficult to go to a place for conversation and debate when many of those who offered you that with intelligence and respect have left for that very reason. There are some who are doing a decent job of being respectful while still sticking to their guns. I do applaud them, even though I don't always agree. Others still choose the same labeling technique that is very burdensome to the forum. But then again, they are unable to vent their anger anywhere else and must weakly do so with insulting vitriol behind the cowardly anonymity of the internet. So be it, they only unmask their own foppishness when they choose to deride. Nice to you post there every so often too.

[Andrew LaGow]

Yeah, I went back, but I have set some very strict rules for myself.

1) Don't get involved with the X-critics. There's more to talk about, although they don;t seem to know or care;

2) Don't allow myself to get baited into anything. Ignore the people who drive me nuts.

We'll see if that works. If it doesn't then I hope your boot is at the ready because I'm gonna deserve it.

Andy

[Phil St. Romain]

It's interesting to see that the term X-critic has come to stick. I can modestly take credit, in part, for coining that term, as a charitable alternative to X-hater, which is really more accurate.

We find these types on almost all Internet forums, although thankfully not so much on this one. I've never really been sure what their issues really are--something deeper than not being able to kill the dock, get rid of stripes, etc. There's a hatred and mean-spiritedness in their posts, not to mention an abject refusal to see and acknowledge the positive things that others say. Unhappy people, I think. But they really can screw up a forum!

I don't really think they can be reasoned with. If one decides to engage in confronting thier innumerable half-truths, lies, and distortions, then the only way to do this is in an "in-your-face" kind of way, matching their tone while literally blowing them away with the truth. Of course, one pays a price for doing so in terms of a certain loss of dignity, but sometimes it's kind of worth it just to show the bullies that they don't wield absolute power.

[Andrew LaGow]

Phil, I wish I had the patience for that, but after a shot or two I just get tired. I am definitely not the angry young man I once was and am more interested in the community--since I work by myself at home a lot--than having an argument with someone.

Besides, I acknowledge there are many more people who are emminently more capable of thinking their way through a fight than I, so I'll leave that task to them.

I have to say, though, the more I think about those who would bully and lord it over everyone else in a forum, the more I wonder when an online "Columbine" is going to happen. Some little geek is going to get so tired of being picked on he's going to write a virus or something and just blow up what he can. Doesn't seem that far fetched to me.

Andy

[mervTormel]

Originally posted by baryonyx
...Some little geek is going to get so tired of being picked on he's going to write a virus or something and just blow up what he can. Doesn't seem that far fetched to me.
i'm quite surprised it doesn't happen every day. i'm not surprised there's so much violence in our society. i am surprised there isn't more. seems to me that our civility is a rather thin veneer that is quite easily breeched. just have to set up the dominos and swing your stick. the escalation culminates when one is either bloodied or another is rebuffed into submission. preferably the latter wins, but it's not always possible.

[Thundarr]

Unfortunately anonymity cuts both ways. It protects us from those who just want to do ill, but it also allows many to speak with disregard because they have no consequences to fear.

In the end, good forums are those in which the moderators use patience and common sense to guide the conversations. They utilize the censorship button sparingly, not because they are interested in the "free" speech argument, but because they don't have to. Rather they use their power to steer the conversations away from the troubling waters of insult, contempt, and vitriol and intercede through their own moderate discourse. They establish respect and it is generally accorded to them. Fourms where the hatred and malevolence occurs are, in great part, a product of poor moderation. At least that is how I see it.

[Phil St. Romain]

[i]Fourms where the hatred and malevolence occurs are, in great part, a product of poor moderation. At least that is how I see it. [/B]

I totally agree with this point and practically begged the moderators to do their jobs in one of the forums I'm sure we're all thinking about. Problem was, quite a few of the X-critic regulars accused me of fighting for censorship, or of being intolerant of criticisms of OS X. The moderators even accused me of making a mountain out of a molehill! That's when I decided I'd had enough.

[Andrew LaGow]

Well, I just let Ilene over at MFI know (http://www.macfixitforums.com/php/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum9&Number=376510&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&part=) how I feel about the whole thing. Maybe she'll pay attention, maybe it'll backfire on me, but I figured it was worth a shot.

But listening to you talk, Phil, I get the idea this will fall upon deaf ears. You left when things were pretty bad and if they think that wasn't so awful, then they have different ideas about what constitutes bad behavior than I do. I certainly don't let my kids get away with that. What makes adults any different, unless they're hypocrites?

Andy

[lerkfish]

Originally posted by baryonyx
Well, I just let Ilene over at MFI know (http://www.macfixitforums.com/php/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum9&Number=376510&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&part=) how I feel about the whole thing. Maybe she'll pay attention, maybe it'll backfire on me, but I figured it was worth a shot.
hate to break it to you, but I posted something similar (though not as personalized) regarding the moderating. Coincidentally, I was eventually banned and Ilene refused to answer my emails....decipher that as you wish, but there you go.

[Craig R. Arko]

I think we all did, at one point or another. It's just unfortunate (for the readership) that much of the ready OS X expertise that might have still been there volunteering their time has jumped ship, generally vacating the helpful areas as well. In some ways similar to what macosx.com people underwent, although in others very different.

As I've said before, not my problem. Especially since a lot of that expertise has found a congenial home right here.

[Craig R. Arko]

Thundarr:

"Please excuse me if I do not buy into the thalo rock star myopia. Or get down on both knees to swallow the thalo choke load, only to spit it out in some other forum as gospel."

ROFLMAO again.

Better check the keyboards for forensic evidence.

I did not have sex with that troll!

[Thundarr]

:D

[lerkfish]

what I would really like to post, but can't:

If I get up and walk out of a movie, It doesn't mean I'm a lousy moviegoer or don't know how to watch a movie. It could just as easily be because the plot is hackneyed and predictable, the dialogue repetitive, and there is no empathy for the main character.

:D

[Thundarr]

Well the forum action is a microcosm of the violence we see in the world. Peace can only ensue when one side is willing to be big enough to just not engage, yet still maintain their independence and composure. That is plainly what occurred in the well known case of X-supporters who retired from the forum. They decided that they would be courageous enough to not respond, even if it meant being bad mouthed behind their back by the cowardly taunters. But it is easy for any bully to re-initiate incendiary dialogue again and begin the cycle anew with fresh targets who haven't learned the lesson. And when the attention is great enough, the heat of demagoguery is turned up to try and push more and more. I would love to have an impartial witness schooled in psychology evaluate the whole situation.

[Craig R. Arko]

Shouldn't that be 'Child Psychology'?

[Thundarr]

In this case, absolutely.

[Andrew LaGow]

Thundarr, I can not believe what I just read. If you're not careful you're gonna get your own bad self banned.

Man, that was funny.

Andy

[TheBear]

Hi all,

I hope as a new user here I don't offend anyone with what I am about to say.

First, it took reading quite a few posts to realize "mfi" was referring to the MacFixit site. A suggestion, in the first post, even though many may know of the site you refer to , spelling it out would be helpful.

Second, while I do like Mac OS X overall, I really have some major issues with aqua. For me it is slow, and I hate having a single info box come up when I have multiple items selected in the finder.

I really think there were lots of backwards steps taken with aqua compared to OS9. And if any think I haven't been a mac user for long, I purchased the first Apple ][ sold in the state of Maine in January 1980, I also was the tech support manager for Applied Engineering for 6.5 years (a major Apple ][ developer), so I have been around for some time. But I also realize that each of us is different and what I don't like others may.

Anyway, not trying to start anything, just post a comment on some things I don't like on X.

Dale

[Thundarr]

Dale, contrary to what ever has been posted about us, we actually do like to hear people's comments on what they do not like about OSX. In fact, many of us have similar reservation in particular areas of the operating system and do often speak of them. Many of us find ways to overcome limitations through 3rd parties while waiting for Apple to make changes in future updates. But we also accept that some people choose not to go that route.

For the record, our problem at MFI does not stem from the fact that people have problems or reservations. It stems from the intractable positions of OSX being a piece of **** and all who use ****-settlers, or some other equally derogatory slang. Our issue is not one of differing opinions, it is about cowardice and basic respect. We welcome opposing opinions, accept them and respect them. In fact feel free to post your experiences in the OSXperiences forum. Remember problems or bad experiences help everyone. Vitriolic tone does not.

With that said, I would love to hear your comments, suggestions, opinions about OSX, be they good or bad as long as they live within the realm of common courtesy,a s you seem to have by your post above. Welcome to the forum Dale and keep on contributing, it can only help.

[Craig R. Arko]

Yes, this particular thread needs to be taken with the same large dose of wasabe as the other 'refugee' threads. Lots of steam being blown off.

I think we who use OS X pretty much 24/7 have developed a deep appreciation for its weaknesses, as well as its strengths. Particularly in comparison with the other OS's we use or did use pretty much 24/7. There's no perfection to be found in any of them (not even the Apple ROM Monitor used in those early ]['s). :)

[Craig R. Arko]

Hey, Thundarr and Baryonyx, do you happen to have those boots handy now? Put 'em here, will ya? I almost let myself be drawn back into, well, you know what.

Thanks!

[Andrew LaGow]

Yeah, here I am doing it again, too.

Ready...WHOMP!!

Ouch!

Andy

[lerkfish]

could someone who is allowed to post there warn off someone trying to get a certain "pro" user to display his work? Dead end.

To my knowledge, this request has never been fulfilled, here a year later from the first time I made such a request. Someone should let that fellow know that's never going to materialize, so he might as well let it go. In actuality, the quality or quantity of his work is immaterial, the only true qualification of being a professional is to get paid.

in the meantime, that graphic I displayed a year ago done completely in OSX during that discussion has won a second award, a second place Ohio AP award. Otherwise, some of my work can be viewed at:

this site (http://www.bzart.com)

the fact that I have no qualms showing my work means that I actually have work to show. :)

[Phil St. Romain]

Wow, great work, lerk! :cool: I'd call that pro-caliber work! You sure you did that on OS X? I thought "real graphic pros" found it retarded. ;)

[Craig R. Arko]

Originally posted by lerkfish
could someone who is allowed to post there warn off someone trying to get a certain "pro" user to display his work? Dead end.

No kidding.

Thun, Andy, again. If one of you wanted to point BlackNova towards us I'm sure some of the working systems professionals here would be happy to answer his questions.

Andy, thanks for the boot. It hurt so good. And Lerk; that really is fine work. You oughta turn Pro, or something. :D

[Andrew LaGow]

Craig--done. Hope he finds his way here. Couldn't help but mention some credentials, but it's just so dang cool. I recently learned that an aquaintance of mine who volunteers on the local planning board (I'm on the Conservation Board) works at IBM's research facility here in town and was one of the guys who developed the copper-process chip technlogy used in the PowerPC chips. I fell all over myself, so awed was I. He says he has some wafers lying around in his garage he'll show me...

Andy

[Craig R. Arko]

OK, Andy, thanks. We'll see if we can offer some useful observations.

Wafers in the garage, huh? :cool:

It never fails to amaze me how folks hold hardware engineers in awe; until they have to work with them, anyway. At Honeywell we used to have quite a competition between hardware and software engineers, mostly of the finger-pointing variety. :D

[Thundarr]

Hey Craig and Andy, I don't think your transgressions are worthy of THE BOOT. Seemed well placed and reasonable debate that didn't engage the nasties. I enjoy seeing you two post over there every now and again. Reminds me of why I first started posting there in the first place. Besides, others who have claimed to have left still return to post. Why not add your perspectives as well. You know there are newbies lurking who may benefit by hearing everyone's opinions. Also, I don't like the idea of the pissing contest with a self pronounced winner. The re-appearance of supposedly "vanquished" parties only reinforces the idea that this isn't a contest, but a discussion.

Lerk, nice work and site. Is your site all OSX designed? I actually do appreciate more people starting to enter the fray again. Although their tones may not deter anyone who has staunchly remained an antagonist, getting what has been dished out isn't such a bad thing. And his later post was much more interesting than I though it would be. It is a roux that helps thicken the plot.

[Craig R. Arko]

Well, there were actually pretty some sensible reasons why the 4 of us stopped being involved over there after beginning this endeavour, if you'll recall.

Since pretty much nothing has changed those reasons are still valid.

[Thundarr]

I do remember the REAL reasons you guys left, Craig. That has never been in doubt with me, nor do I think those reasons are unjustified, as they are still in effect. But some people there live in the world of make believe and think otherwise. I know those conditions haven't changed, and you DO have one swell site here, but it is good to see your return, even if it is only in passing and infrequent. Popping your head in every now and again does send a good message, so, like I said, no boot for you young man. :)

[lerkfish]

sorry, ONE piece that was done exclusively in OSX (before any updates) has won two awards, one national and one state level.
Although many more recent things on the bzart site were also done in OSX, not everything on the site was (older stuff, mainly), although the site itself was constructed in OSX, using Golive 5 in classic. (though I'm updating it in Golive 6 in OSX as we speak)

Sorry that was confusing. I only brought it up because my riverscape page I had completed in OSX 10.0 to see if it could be done, and THAT was the example I used with thalo to show that yes, real professionals can work in OSX. I posted it as a challenge for thalo to post some of HIS work to show his "pro" status, but instead of posting his work, he claimed I had a huge ego problem and used it as a way to avoid posting his work. I highly suspect he has never created anything of his own, therefore will not post any examples because he doesn't have any. The reason I think this is further true is recently on MFI he mentions having to open 240 photoshop files to make 1 pixel dimension changes on all of them....this is pretty much lower-end grunt work that you wouldn't want to waste anyone of any real talent on. In a way, I feel sorry for him, I'm guessing the adulation he seeks there is something he does not receive professionally.

We used to have a saying in my profession: "The larger the ego the smaller the talent". Anyone who actually IS a talented professional doesn't have to spend all their energy CLAIMING to be a talented professional. Sort of like people who talk about sex aren't really getting any.

:)

[Thundarr]

On the one hand, I can definitely empathize with the desire to at least maintain some degree of anonymity for protection. After all, this past year has demonstrated that there are crazy people out there who would go to great lengths to injure. So I do not fault anyone for not displaying their personal or professional lives. Although anonymity should not be used as a cowardly cloak to protect the disrespectful and inappropriate actions of weak-minded thugs. And moderators should always insure that a minimal amount of courtesy is afforded at all times.

On the other hand, the iDisk is a relatively easy way to maintain that privacy and still provide an inkling of a sample. Especially in the case where someone is actually using their profession as an argument, rather than just simply obeying the credo of words are the sole power, the iDisk trick could be very convenient. Personally, if someone doesn't want to offer a sample or display their talents that is fine with me as I am willing to debate people on the merits of their written arguments. But, in this case, they should then accept that they cannot convincingly argue by invoking spokesmanship for a profession as a back drop.

[Andrew LaGow]

Lerk, I couldn't agree with you more. As an art director over the last 15 years or so it has been my experience that the attitude:talent ratio is basically 10:1. Almost all of the most hugely talented people I have met and worked with are the nicest folks. They don't need shoot their mouths off because their work speaks for itself.

Conversely, most of the people I know who sport the 'tude have very little in the way of actual talent. Strangely enough in the graphic design industry--and I suspect some others--talking a good game can deflect people's attention away from what you're actually producing--for a while.

Thalo is, unfortunately, a troll with sycophants who feed his ego. He is best ignored and left to his little dark corner of the world. The challenge is ignoring the personal attacks and innuendo. The justifiable impulse is to defend oneself. I couldn't believe he was insinuating I was some failed first-year design student when in "real life" I'd probably be the boss who fired his sorry, whining ass after six weeks.

Oh well!

Andy

[Craig R. Arko]

As my late Vietnamese friend used to put it:

"Those who Talk don't know, those who know don't Talk."

Andy, you should maybe stay out of there for a while, since it sounds like you derive zero actual benefit from it, and it may be driving up the 'ol BP. Win by outliving them. When the first generation of hardware arrives that will not natively boot OS 9 (which may be heralded by XServe), people are going to be facing some pretty difficult choices. Be happy that you have three options and not just one.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Craig R. Arko
When the first generation of hardware arrives that will not natively boot OS 9 (which may be heralded by XServe), people are going to be facing some pretty difficult choices.
Me want!! Me want!!
(Sorry to interrupt your discussion.)

[Phil St. Romain]

Lerk, that was a good analogy about the movie. I like that. Fits perfectly.

Re. moderation. This isn't always necessary in a forum if it's capable of self-moderating. Of course, that presumes people on both sides who are willing to listen to each other, consider feedback, and make adjustments for the good of the forum.

When people are playing "king of the hill" instead, self-regulation is impossible. That's when moderators need to decide if the purpose of the forum is being served by that game, and step in if necessary to restore some kind of order.

[lerkfish]

Originally posted by baryonyx
Lerk, I couldn't agree with you more. As an art director over the last 15 years or so it has been my experience that the attitude:talent ratio is basically 10:1. Almost all of the most hugely talented people I have met and worked with are the nicest folks. They don't need shoot their mouths off because their work speaks for itself.

Conversely, most of the people I know who sport the 'tude have very little in the way of actual talent. Strangely enough in the graphic design industry--and I suspect some others--talking a good game can deflect people's attention away from what you're actually producing--for a while.

Thalo is, unfortunately, a troll with sycophants who feed his ego. He is best ignored and left to his little dark corner of the world. The challenge is ignoring the personal attacks and innuendo. The justifiable impulse is to defend oneself. I couldn't believe he was insinuating I was some failed first-year design student when in "real life" I'd probably be the boss who fired his sorry, whining ass after six weeks.

Oh well!

Andy

absolutely. The work ALWAYS speaks for itself. that is precisely why I was trying to push thalo a year ago to post his work, because I could tell precisely from his attitude there was no substance. This does not mean he didn't have a few good points, unfortunately the same ones repeated ad nauseum. It was only when he claimed to be a spokesperson for professional users that I felt he needed to be exposed for what he was (or wasn't).

Sadly, most of the sycophants who hang around him are NOT graphic professionals and are buying his line at face value.

[Andrew LaGow]

Andy, you should maybe stay out of there for a while, since it sounds like you derive zero actual benefit from it, and it may be driving up the 'ol BP. Win by outliving them.

I did let a little of the o'l vitriol out there, didn't I? I admit it, he gets under my skin. He talks that talk, coming off like he speaks for all graphics "pros" and actually has people believing we all feel that way. I'm doing a 150-page trade show directory entirely in InDesign and Illustrator on OS X. It's giving me no problems so far. To the contrary--I never crash.

[I have to say, as a professional aside, InDesign, coupled with an OpenType font, sets type so amazingly beautifully, I can't get over it. I set my local Conservation Board's annual report in the Adobe Garamond Pro that comes with InDesign and I couldn't believe it. It leaves Quark in the dust and it's OS X-native, baby!]

Andy

[lerkfish]

That's good to hear about indesign...I keep trying to pick one up on ebay since I can't afford the full retail 600 bucks for personal use at home. I used a demo version and was very impressed.

re: blood pressure and MFI. I found that once we'd decided not to post there, my BP lowered considerably. I can now go back and read and it doesn't bother me. What I do now is page completely past certain long and boring posts, and only read the highlights by seeing what people choose to pick out of the tomes to reply to.

much happier that way.

[Blacknova]

Originally posted by Craig R. Arko
Thun, Andy, again. If one of you wanted to point BlackNova towards us I'm sure some of the working systems professionals here would be happy to answer his questions.

Someone rang??

I will surface a little more here when I have caught up with everything else, possibly sharing the feeling some of you might get when you spread yourself too thinly.

Greets,
Nova

[Craig R. Arko]

That's "Master of all I Survey." :D

Welcome to the forum. I'd suggest reading around a little to get a feel for the character of the place, if you get a chance, early on.

[Andrew LaGow]

Blacknova, good to see you--welcome.

Andy

[Blacknova]

No Ali G reference implied, of course ;)

Greets,
Nova

[AKcrab]

"I am pentium of borg, division is futile, you will be approximated."
Funny stuff!! I'm here to butt into this thread with occasional nonsense. Put me on your ignore list. :p

[Blacknova]

I found a few of these babies wandering around the wastelands of the net... feel free to abuse them, I did ;-)

"Computers games do not affect people, I mean, if pac-man had affected us as kids we would all be running round darkened rooms, eating magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."

"Apathy error : Don't bother pressing any key to continue"

"I am homer of borg, resistance is futile, you will be.... oooooo donuts!!"

"Every program has (at least) two purposes: the one for which it was written and another for which it wasn't."

"I cna ytpe 300 wrods pre mniuet!!!"

"A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy."

Plenty of these diddy little things out there... I collect 'em when I get bored :D

Greets,
Nova

[Markle]

My goodness, guys.....

I had no idea that you devoted so much of your time over here to talking about us humble scribes back at MFI's OS X Talk. It's an honor to be so much in your thoughts! ;)

Markle

[Phil St. Romain]

LOL! :)

Welcome, Markle! This thread has become sort of a support group session for those suffering with or still recovering from OS X Talk at MFI. You're welcome to join, but you first have to let us kick you in the butt. ;)

[Craig R. Arko]

Yes, we have attracted many refugees who got disgusted with their old locales. I think many of them appreciate actually having their difficulties worked on and often solved.

Welcome to the forums!

PS to Phil: I don't think we've had to kick anyone's backside here, ever. When concerns are expressed, people seem to have responded quite intelligently every time. Thank you, members!

[Phil St. Romain]

Agreed, Craig. I was just having a little fun with the thread title. ;)

[lerkfish]

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain
LOL! :)

Welcome, Markle! This thread has become sort of a support group session for those suffering with or still recovering from OS X Talk at MFI.

Yes, there's another thread full of refugees from Macosx (I think).
Someone likened us here to the Red Cross of message boards. When people get fed up at other places, they come here for good old-fashioned help with problems and hints and tips in a civil manner.

Welcome Markle.

[Markle]

<< you first have to let us kick you in the butt. >>

You'd really enjoy that, wouldn't you, Phil?!

:D

Markle

[Phil St. Romain]

Ha, Markle! :p

[Craig R. Arko]

Blacknova, take a look in this thread (http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3580) for a little more Rhapsody talk. I mentioned to RacerX that someone might be interested.