Looking for refuge from MacNN

[AKcrab]

It's madness over there. I believe I notice some familiar names here, and things seem so nice and calm.

Lerkfish, you are a voice of reason in a cacophony of madness over at MacNN, I applaud you. (Assuming it's the same lerkfish)

Can I hide here for a while? :)

[Phil St. Romain]

Welcome AKcrab! There are refuges from several forums over here, and I'm sure your MacNN lerkfish is one and the same aquatic animal as my co-moderator friend.

Enjoy yourself here. :)

[lerkfish]

Originally posted by AKcrab
Lerkfish, you are a voice of reason in a cacophony of madness over at MacNN, I applaud you. (Assuming it's the same lerkfish)

Can I hide here for a while? :)

c'est moi. ;)

you're more than welcome to hide out here...less bandwidth but higher s/n ratio. Plus a lot of these guys truly know what they're talking about...er...more than me, anyways (unix forums and whatnot).

[maxelson]

Of course, I do really hate to drag this MacNN business in here as a topic- kind of like spreading the compost o'er the weeds to make them ranker- but I do have to say it: The calm here is alluring. I think it is, after a year and a half of rancor, retort, recursion and "rectitude", time to take a breather. Way too serious at times. What starts as elightening debate usually degrades to flamefest. I mean it is usually pretty good until someone ups the ante and gets personal- needlessly so. I find that, as of right now, I am tired of it. Lerk does well by doing good over there. But jeez, the nutjobs. I take off last wednesday to go home to care for my ailing little viking child and I return today to a hard core soap of severe silliness and simpering I don't know what. I am so sick of the ascii tough guy routine put up by (and yes, I cast judgement here, evidence in my favor) no life frauds. Even the fun to be had with some truly great folks is dampened by all the melodrama. Even the mods are getting into the act.
In short, had it.
So, I'll be sticking 'round here for a bit. Time to go and see what the actual Mac based sides of this forum have to offer as well.
So. Anyone into Shakespeare?

[lerkfish]

well, I studied shakespeare in college..and...er..recognized the Lion King as Hamlet.

does that count?

:)

sick little viking child? is she ok?

[Craig R. Arko]

I hear it's not the same unless read in the original Klingon.

[maxelson]

Klingon. Heh. I tried pretty hard. Made it through the first couple of lines. I think one has to hear it to truly appreciate the gutteral sing songiness of the bard in a made up alien language.

Thanks, Lerk. She's good now. It is truly amazing how toddlers and infants can get such high fevers and not be... well, killed by them. 102- the doctor does not even want to hear about it and we, as adults, are not moving. Breathing, but not much else. 104 and the kid is slightly cranky- we are hallucinating with the remianing brain cells that have not already cooked. 105 and it may be time to call the doctor who may or may not be concerned. Us? Hell, we are deader than Julius Caesar. She hit 104.5. First time I actually freaked as a parent. She was just a little mopey. Smiling, but mopey. SHe's cool and back to day care today.
And bonus points to you for catching the Lion King thing. It amazes me that not many people do.
Remember "My Own Private Idaho"? Henry IV.
IMO, Revenge tragedies as a genre kind of took a dive just prior to the Restoration era (which, as we know, was earmarked by sex, sex, sex and not so much blood). Shame, really. I am thinking about writing one. In iambic pentameter, of course. Gotta step up and fill that void.
Whither Kyd? Whither Marlowe? Whither Middleton and Rowley and Webster?
Who's up for a little Duchess of Malfi? Revengers Tragedy? The Changeling? Jew of Malta? Titus Andronicus?

[sbur]

Sound like its a good thing I bailed when I did. Some might know me as "Boots" on Macnn.

In retrospect, it was probably an apt name given all the muck you have to wade through over there. A nice pair of rubber boots would have helped a lot.

Anyway....

Shakespear. Yeah. I read Hamlet, R & J, King Lear....can't stand to read any more. My wife keeps telling me to read some of the comedies, but "Dead Poets Society" soured me on "Midsummer Nights Dream." I know it's irrational, but I've never claimed to be a completely rational person. :)


BTW, have you ever deconstructed the Lion King for implicit messages? Kinda scary to think that these are the things kids come away with and don't even know it....

[maxelson]

Glad to see ye, sbur (nee boots).
I Look forward to deconstructing the Lion King with my child! It will be one of my great joys. A lesson in "Question Everything".
As for reading Shakespeare, screw it. NOt meant to be read by anyone other than actors and directors. Listen to it. See it. To read it kills it dead. It is meant to be heard. Now go drop some Titus Andrinicus on your iPod!

[maxelson]

...and before we depart the topic of the Revenge Tragedy... Hamlet was NOT one... can anyone tell the rest of the class why? Anyone? Class?

[Andrew LaGow]

I can't speak to Shakespeare--Although I really enjoyed "Shakespeare in Love" (for all the wrong reasons, I suspect)--but I did have the lead role in my high school class reading of "Antigone."

Andy

[AKcrab]

To be honest, I don't know much shakespeare, but the thought of it performed in Klingon made me burst out laughing. Will babelfish do Klingon?

Nice to see another familiar binary face, maxelson!

[maxelson]

We're here for ya, AKcrab!
Actually, I came across a published hard copy of Hamlet in Klingon. I have seen it online, but someone actually went through the trouble of putting it on a block of paper. Weirness does not typically phase me, but, jeez, I was a little bamboozled.
here it be: http://www.kli.org/stuff/Hamlet.html

For your amusement:

taH pagh taHbe'. DaH mu'tlheghvam vIqelnIS.
To be, or not to be: --- that is the question: ---

quv'a', yabDaq San vaQ cha, pu' je SIQDI'?
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,

pagh, Seng bIQ'a'Hey SuvmeH nuHmey SuqDI',
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,

'ej, Suvmo', rInmoHDI'? Hegh. Qong --- Qong neH ---
And by opposing end them? --- To die: --- to sleep; ---

'ej QongDI', tIq 'oy', wa'SanID Daw''e' je
No more; and by a sleep to say we end

cho'nISbogh porghDaj rInmoHlaH net Har.
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks

That flesh is heir to, --- 'tis a consummation

yIn mevbogh mIwvam'e' wIruchqangbej.
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, --- to sleep; ---

Hegh. Qong. QongDI' chaq naj. toH, waQlaw' ghu'vam!
To sleep! perchance to dream: --- ay, there's the rub;

HeghDaq maQongtaHvIS, tugh nuq wInajlaH,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,

volchaHmajvo' jubbe'wI' bep wIwoDDI';
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

'e' wIqelDI', maHeDnIS. Qugh DISIQnIS,
Must give us pause: there's the respect

SIQmoHmo' qechvam. Qugh yIn nI'moH 'oH.
That makes calamity of so long life.

Heh.

Now. Shakespeare in Love. I have to admit, I enjoyed it. I do have to say, if you are familiar with the dramatists and styles of the ELizabethan age, you get more of a kick out of it. These people really did some homework- to benefit the crowd of sticklers who were inevitably going to come in swinging, I suppose.
The scene with little John Webster (took the art of Revenge Tragedy to a whole new level of gore) was DAMNED funny. Ditto the stuff with Kit Marlowe.

As for our question of Hamlet, Revenge Tragedy or not, class, the answer is, of course, NO. Hamlet is NOT a revenge tragedy. A Revenge tragedy MUST have revenge as the central plot device, that which drives the action. Hamlet is not about revenge. It is simply the story of a man who could not make up his mind. We do have some elements in common, mind: A ghost driving the protagonist, everyone dead at the end, the element of revenge itself. One thing that happens in Hamlet that is not present in, say, The Revenger's Tragedy or the Duchess of Malfi (GREAT bloodsport in these, my friends) is that the revenger never questions his motive for revenge. The cause is just, revenge justified. In Hamlet, the revenge IS, according to the age, justified, but Hamlet questions his role in that action, and even the legitimacy of the ghost's claim... I mean, try proving THAT one in court. Indecision, existence and justice are the central themes in Hamlet- NOT revenge.
OK. I have dribbled on too long. Sorry. I am just in a mood for it, is all.
Anyone up for a discussion on Norse mythology as a source for LOTR?
:D

[Craig R. Arko]

I take it you guys never saw Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country? They have Christopher Plummer doing Shakespeare in both English and Klingon.

AKcrab, would you really like this thread renamed?

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Craig R. Arko
AKcrab, would you really like this thread renamed?

Well, we would have to try and get rid of all references to the other board, which would be difficult at this point...

I suppose if the title was horrible it would have been edited already... Let it stand. In hindsight, pointing fingers at a specific other board was probably a bad idea, but at least I know I'm not alone.
:cool:

[Cheerios]

hey AK, me here too! :) I go run my energy off at NN (ooh, the pic association thread is entertaining!!) then off towards here to lurk in the Unix fora and absorb incomprehensible Unix-babble. worse than Klingon, I tell ya! ;)

max, I'm sad, I didn't get a chance to answer your question! I even knew the answer, although not so eloquently! :) So, here's your question: Was Hamlet insane? Was he being clever, and acting that way, or did his dad's ghost (was his dad's ghost really there?) just drive him over the edge?? And on a similar note, why say you Shakespeare can't be read? Read it! It's so... ordered. You "hear" it in your head, and can rewind the action as many times as you like, if you hit a funky part! Midsummer Night's Dream, easy read(relatively), enjoyable, lots of fun. Also enjoyable: taming of the Shrew. there is a movie, (don't ask me which one, I don't know), that is done of it, and it does make it easier to follow the plot, a tad, to just have to focus on faces, and to SEE the people being mischevious, but Shakespeare is VERY readable. ... so there. ;)

That said, I hope your Viking Princess is feeling better, and that you didn't catch whatever it was, when you were home with her!

btw, someone, how DO you spell mischevious? Spell check says I'm wrong, but won't fix it!!! :(

[sbur]

Originally posted by Cheerios

btw, someone, how DO you spell mischevious? Spell check says I'm wrong, but won't fix it!!! :(
Not that I am the best enforcer for the spelling police, but....

mischievous

(your "i" was in the wrong spot. )

[maxelson]

AH! My favorite little California person! And I am, at 6'1", perfectly harmless and to my friends I even give that impression!
Now. Serious business. Hamlet's fruitcakiness: I am going with a "No" for these several reasons:
1) In act 1, he SAYS he's going to act fruitloopy- "howsoever I may see something or another yaddah yaddah to bear myself"... blahblahblah "antic disposition on" and whatnot.
2) Too many moments of clarity in the soliloquys. Not to mention in the end
3) In act IV to mom: "That I am essentially not in madness, but mad in craft".
I have found that, in my readings, Shakespeare is pretty good about giving you all of the clues even if he does not just come right out with it.
Nah. Not loopy. In fact, I think the whole thing was a most elaborate suicide plot. But that's for another time. I'd like to hear the argument for the cookie factory Hamlet from someone.

Oh. And about reading. I say "shouldn't" not "can't". SOme folks have a great ability to "hear" the language as they read and "run the movie" in their heads. You obviously can. Not so for all. I knew you were talented. Marry me.

[xi_hyperon]

Hey guys! I think everyone is getting tired of the same old stuff going on in the Lounge. I'm finding myself opening fewer and fewer threads because the proverbial diamond in the rough is getting harder to find. Even with topics I'd like to discuss- politics and international issues - I refuse to participate because it's always just the same people flaming each other. Everyone already knows the answer to everything. Not worth posting an opinion if you can already predict how each and every member is going to react. Re-runs. On the positive side, I've gotten more work done lately.:D

[mervTormel]

As You Like It

by Bill

SCENE VII. The forest
...
DUKE SENIOR

Fie on thee! I can tell what thou wouldst do.

JAQUES

What, for a counter, would I do but good?

DUKE SENIOR

Most mischievous foul sin, in chiding sin:
For thou thyself hast been a libertine,
As sensual as the brutish sting itself;
And all the embossed sores and headed evils,
That thou with licence of free foot hast caught,
Wouldst thou disgorge into the general world.
...

draw your own parallels. i did. but then, i've been up all night reading Heinlein ;]

[maxelson]

Post of the Day award to Merv!:cool:

[poocat]

i's loving you guys.

jez.

max, of course it's not revenge... it's about mental clarity versus obfuscation (which i probably can't spell correctly) and about growing up/realizing what you're going to have to do to/with the world. just like everything.

i remember an english teacher telling me, sooo long ago, that there are only two stories (and their obvious variations): boy meets girl, and innocence to experience.

five thousand and fifty eight books later, i've never been able to prove him wrong.
clarity is an amazing belief.

heinlein is one of my two favorite authors in the world. (the other being gary snyder).

only tolkien has ever told a better story, and he only really told one. (arguable and i'm ready for it, so step... :))

woosh.
it's great to see you guys (ha) again.
been in hiroshima for the last week... an... enlightening... experience. highly recommended.

props to all,
poocat.

[maxelson]

Of course, one could even whittle the list down to just innocence to experience as boy meets girl could, concievably, fall into that category.
SHort transcript of a conversation what took place thirty seconds ago:
A: What about a story which details a quest for lost innocence?
B: Nah. Technicality, but innocence will imply a lack of knowledge. The knowledge gained in that case would be "you can never go back". So, I to E would still apply.

[mervTormel]

"You cannot step into the same river twice." --Heraclitus

"You can't even step in the same river once!" --mervTormel

[Timo]

Just checkin' in, y'all. Though I've been over at MacNN it has gotten silly.

Basically I just follow Lerk and Max around...:D

[lerkfish]

Originally posted by Timo
Just checkin' in, y'all. Though I've been over at MacNN it has gotten silly.

Basically I just follow Lerk and Max around...:D

well, then I should be wearing the t-shirt "don't follow me, cause I'm lost".

I LIKE that I can express my political and whatever views at MacNN, but it does seem a bit pointless at times. Its educational, though, and that's why I keep at it.
I noted some very nice posts by you today over there.

[Timo]

Shucks. Right back at ya, Lerk.

[For whatever reason, the job of deflating "US sucks / Europe is so much better" threads fell to me in the last couple of days. Who wants to tag?]

[sbur]

The kids over there just make me tired all over...I haven't been back to the fora for several months now....Judging from the juvenile comments on the MacNN news page, I'm not missing much: Arab bashing is pretty original these days, and it's amazing the nerve apple has for not putting out a 1.5 GHz G4 iBook running on a 200 MHz bus for less than $1500. Not to mention the stock advice....

It was a quality of life decision to leave. My blood pressure is much closer to normal now.

Lerk: Hope you had a nice vacation. :)

[lerkfish]

yes I did, thanks.
It makes it easier to not lose blood pressure in those situations....hehe.

a week's dose of mickey and minnie and goofy and pluto is a life-affirming event if you have a 3 year old. :D

[sao]

(Nice thread....Ohhh....what I was missing....)


Understanding Shakespeare (a beautiful soul) :


Let my mind fly away,

dissolve in the all envolving ether,

ah...it hurts...

wow...I'm free...

mingling with others, disappearing in unity...

becoming one...all of us...in spirit land...

we remember the beauty...we remember the beginning...

we remember the stand...

all the souls singing the same song...

we always knew the words...

blessed it was, it is and it will be.



Cheers...

[Craig R. Arko]

O/T

What's the deal with IE beachballing so much in the forums over there? Has anybody figured that one out yet? (Yes, I know OmniWeb and Mozilla work OK ;) )

[lerkfish]

its the random banner ad at the top. It doesn't load in javascript very efficiently.

[BLU]

Originally posted by sao
(Nice thread....Ohhh....what I was missing....)


Understanding Shakespeare (a beautiful soul) :


Let my mind fly away,

dissolve in the all envolving ether,

ah...it hurts...

wow...I'm free...

mingling with others, disappearing in unity...

becoming one...all of us...in spirit land...

we remember the beauty...we remember the beginning...

we remember the stand...

all the souls singing the same song...

we always knew the words...

blessed it was, it is and it will be.



Cheers...
Nice poem. ;)

And BTW, Mozilla Rules! :D

[BLU]

You know, I've been registered on MacNN for a long time, but never made a post. I've been semi-active at Macaddict, but have now moved fully over to Macfora (I'm a Moderator there. ;) ) Joined here because of sao. :D

[sao]

Hey, Welcome Blu !!

Good to see you here too!

Enjoy...


Cheers...


PS: And from poet to poet, glad you enjoyed my small shakesperean 'joy and pain'.

[enola]

I almost exclusively hang out in the distributed computing team forum at MacNN. Nice group of people and the atmosphere there is quite restrained ( read polite ) by internet standards. I've only been active on the team for the last couple of months so I don't have a long history there. I have ventured out to other forums at MacNN and it feels like I've entered a whole other world. The culture is so different from the team forum.

[malson]

Yeah Enola, you gotta watch yourself once you leave the Team forum. Lots of crazy people posting garbage, especially in the Lounge. Everything seems to be posted just to get a rise out of someone. All the recent topics about "What do you hate about blah blah..." or "Star Wars Sucks, Rules, whatever" are just a waste of time in my book. I hardly ever venture into the Lounge anymore. Whatever those kids want to do is fine by me...

[Cheerios]

think the star wars threads are bad... there's a "scan a body part" thread now... complete w/ arse's, fingers, and gerbels!

[sbur]

Originally posted by Cheerios
think the star wars threads are bad... there's a "scan a body part" thread now... complete w/ arse's, fingers, and gerbels!

I gave in and went back....I thought it was a guinea pig scan.... :)

It's a shame that any intelligent discussion gets sqaushed. I may not be right in everything I say, but I do like rational discussions. The thread on the priests and sex abuse was kind of interesting, even if it was intended to start a flame war.

I did, however, note that I really haven't missed anything and that my good buddy KH is still around.

[lerkfish]

well...I'm going to take a self-imposed sabbatical from MacNN lounge...The ratio of irrational baiting comments to reasonable debate has shifted in the wrong direction, and I'm finding myself more and more posting in the same vein out of frustration....bah!

it'll be good for me, though.

I'll just try to post less-incendiary versions of topics here. :D

[sbur]

Bring it on. I'd rather converse with people here anyway. :)

[lerkfish]

oh well...in rereading the purpose of this forum, I see:Please note this is not an open forum for personal attacks, political commentary , spamming of services, or other completely off-topic content.

so that eliminates much of what I post at MacNN...and reminds me again of why I chose a while back to post there, having found that the expression of political views were not welcome in another forum (not this one, one unrelated to computers).

I sort of use it as my political release valve...although lately, its been inducing more stress than it relieves.

[AKcrab]

So a thread titled:
Do Democrats use Macs, and Republicans use Windows?
Would not be allowed? :D
Like you lerk, I find myself looking for a "little more" than what one finds in this forum. Of course, the beauty is that if you truly want Mac help and nothing else, this is one of the best (if not the best) sources on the net.

[rusto]

I moderate a political forum that my gaming buddies and I set up at our clan site's forum page (http://www.the37.com) to shunt aside all the ranting/raving/viturperative assaults that were spoiling the other posting categories.

Although I have tried to keep a lid on the worst of it, the same four or five people end up having the same old flame wars no matter what the topic...exhausting to say the least. Granted the range of ages posting there runs from 14 to probably pushing 60, so I guess you can't expect too much clarity of debate.

Funny thing is, our "Computer Stuff" section is largely free of the Mac/PC - Hatfield/McCoy stuff.

[malson]

The MacNN Lounge has gotten so bad that I almost never visit it anymore. The topics are the same garbage over and over and the introduction of polls has just made it worse. These days I find myself spending a lot of time at the ArsTechnica forums. Their Lounge actually has interesting topics and people who are actually discussing stuff. Quite a difference compared to the MacNN Lounge. You can find Ars at www.arstechnica.com (http://www.arstechnica.com) and the forums are at arstechnica.infopop.net (http://arstechnica.infopop.net). One downside is that you have to subscribe to post in their Lounge and a few other special rooms. But, all the technical chat is free and open to anyone. I found the Lounge so nice that I actually subscribed a few days ago ($50/year). That's my $.02.