OS 10.1.5: what's your experience?

[dkal]

After reading about all of the problems people are having with 10.1.5 I'm wondering if I should even consider trying to upgrade from 10.1.4.

Why can't Apple find these stupid problems before releasing the upgrades to the public? The public certainly finds the problems immediately after installing the upgrades.

Is nobody beta-testing this stuff?!?

:mad:

[rusto]

The thing is a combination of ignoring postive reviews of an upgrade (people who have no problems with it) and giving too much emphasis on those that DO have trouble with it.

Especially on help sites, those that had no problem either say so and comment no further or say nothing at all...those that do have trouble are more noticable. To the casual viewer, this may make it look like MOST people are having trouble when in reality its just that most people who HAVE TROUBLE are posting to sites like this one to get help.

I'll wager that if you took the total of ALL people who used the 10.1.5 update you will find that most had no problem...otherwise sites like this would be FLOODED with posts.

[dkal]

I've wondered about the same thing ... could the negative reports greatly outweigh the positive reports? How does one know? Just flashed on an idea ... many Web sites conduct polls or surveys. Maybe someone here on macosxhints.com could set up a survey on upgrading to 10.1.5?

I think it might be informative to see the results of such a survey.

:)

[Craig R. Arko]

Go for it, dkal. The OS Xperiences forum would probably be the right place for it. In fact I'm moving this thread there since it's not a help request.

[mervTormel]

Originally posted by dkal
... could the negative reports greatly outweigh the positive reports?
just look at a newspaper.
... many Web sites conduct polls or surveys. Maybe someone here on macosxhints.com could set up a survey on upgrading to 10.1.5?

I think it might be informative to see the results of such a survey.
yes, informative, but accurate? a wise person makes his own decisions, a weak one obeys public opinion.

[orca498]

I just ran Software Updater last night and upgraded to 10.1.5. So far no problems. (Fingers cramped from excessive crossing.) Now, I haven't run it through all it's paces yet, but I did just finish editing a video for my boss in Final Cut Pro 3, without a hitch. (FCP3 was run in OS X, not Classic.) FCP3 seems to be fairly picky about it's running environment, so...

Since my change over to OS X, I haven't had very many problems at all. When I read postings about people's problems it surprises me a bit. I think some of it has to do with the way that OS X interacts with your hardware. My father has a TiBook, and he has problems all the time.

OS X has been a major change, but hey it could be worse. It could be a PC (J/K)

[dkal]

mervTormel,

Thanks for responding. I always look forward to your comments, and to your wisdom and support.

What I was suggesting was a simple "Yes" or "No" poll that could probably be implemented very easily by macosxhints.com using javascript. "Yes" meaning I upgraded with no problems and "No" meaning I've had problems since upgrading to 10.1.5.

I think that finding out that 97% who upgraded to 10.1.5 said "Yes" would be beneficial to those of us who are still wondering if they should really go ahead with the new upgrade.

In any event, it would be interesting to know the percentage of people who upgraded without a single problem versus those who've had major problems since upgrading. Besides ... doing those polls/surveys are fun to participate in anyways!

Regards,
dkal

[dkal]

Am I brain-dead or how do I instigate a new Poll like I'm seeing now on the Experiences forum? Didn't know it was possible until you moved my thread there!

[mervTormel]

dkal, thanks. Craig suggested you start said poll. let's see, how do we do that?

[edit: i see you saw ;]

[Phil St. Romain]

Ahh, nice to finally know how to do something that merv doesn't know how to do. ;) That happens every blue moon or so.

I'll start the poll on another thread, then merge this one with it. Give me a few minutes.

- - - -

There now: done! And my vote was that I didn't notice any major differences, which means I haven't had the problems with network disconnects and others reported on Mac forums everywhere. That's true for my pismo 500 and an iMac 500, both of which have Transparent Dock and quite a few other haxies, btw.

I agree with the point made that you tend to hear more from people who have problems after an update of this kind, although it was nice to read others where previous problems were fixed.

Phil

[Craig R. Arko]

Fixed a long standing NT Server Finder crash bug, I haven't seen any of the evil side effects others have (fact is I rarely do). iDisk is usable and my Beige G3 Server seems to be a little 'snappier'. :D And using Silk has made things so purty.

Waiting for the 10.1.5 Server update.

[Craig R. Arko]

Hey dkal! Sorry about the confusion. Creating polls are easy and fun, but the ability is not active in the various 'Help Request' forums.

Bounced the other thread per our discussion.

[dkal]

Was confusing but now it looks like all is well for the moment.

Looking forward to the poll results!

[JayBee]

erm, how about adding an "I haven't updated yet" poll response?

[mervTormel]

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain
Ahh, nice to finally know how to do something that merv doesn't know how to do. That happens every blue moon or so.
Phil, the more i know, the more i realize how little i know.

dkal, there's still some grey area in that poll. in my case, i had sendmail problems, but i sure enjoyed figuring it out =8-]

so, perhaps a poll response should be "bring it on! i dig a challenge"

and then there's Silk 1.0 . i dunno if that's attributable to 10.1.5, but, besides being really swell, my sinuses have cleared up and my chi and my tao are talking again!

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=A3s9fs32la3rg

--
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar Wilde

[Phil St. Romain]

Phil, the more i know, the more i realize how little i know.

-------

"merv," allow me to tell you, then, that you're a world class computer guru. :)

I was the one who actaully ended up writing the poll questions, so I suppose the sendmail problem would come under the overall negatives, unless there were some really positive improvements which balanced things out, or tipped them to the positive side.

[mervTormel]

Phil,

one part sophistry
two parts chicanery
dash of deceit
mix well
bottle
label "Instant Charlatan!"

i appreciate your sentiment. i read too much OS stuff and am, alas, ignorant in the other vaguaries.

the upside to the new sendmail is much increased security (on some system configs). it doesn't need to run as setuid anymore, which allowed savvy folk to compromise the root account using sendmail as a vector.

[AKcrab]

Looks like most people are not experiencing the "disconnect when waking from sleep" bug. Wonder how I got so unlucky... I was unsure how to vote, as I certainly am enjoying the speedy iDisk access, but having to wait for reconnect is very annoying. At least I'm not one of the group that has to reboot to get reconnected. The computer does it by itself. I bet somebody finds a fix very shortly.

[mdaniel]

I voted prematurely. I am having the disconnect thing happen on sleep. It's a huge pain so no more sleeping for my machine. I'm on a new 2x-G4. I left windows because of dumb problems like this. Now I just have different problems.
btw - i liked the sleep mode because my mac generates a LOT of heat. I have to keep a fan on while I'm using it.

[mervTormel]

Originally posted by mdaniel
...I am having the disconnect thing happen on sleep. It's a huge pain so no more sleeping for my machine...
i, too, am, lamentably, experiencing, sometimes, this. sometimes, mind you.

question: does this manifest itself like so? ...

$ tail -v -n50 /var/log/system.log
...

# invoke sleep here, count to 30-banana

Jun 8 15:02:05 gunther mach_kernel: AppleNMI mask NMI
Jun 8 15:02:05 gunther mach_kernel: PCI sleep prevented by non-power-managed pci9004,7810 (1)
Jun 8 15:02:08 gunther mach_kernel: AppleNMI mask NMI
Jun 8 15:02:37 gunther mach_kernel: Hello
Jun 8 15:02:37 gunther mach_kernel: HelloADB present:4
Jun 8 15:02:37 gunther mach_kernel: System Doze
Jun 8 15:02:37 gunther mach_kernel: AppleNMI unmask NMI
Jun 8 15:02:37 gunther mach_kernel: UniNEnet::monitorLinkStatus - Link is up at 100 Mbps - Full Duplex
Jun 8 15:02:37 gunther mach_kernel:
Jun 8 15:02:10 gunther configd[183]: executing /System/Library/SystemConfiguration/Kicker.bundle/Resources/restart-NetInfo
Jun 8 15:02:10 gunther nibindd[269]: Shutting down NetInfo servers
Jun 8 15:02:10 gunther nibindd[269]: Restarting NetInfo
Jun 8 15:02:38 gunther niutil: NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
Jun 8 15:02:42 gunther last message repeated 3 times
Jun 8 15:02:43 gunther configd[183]: executing /System/Library/SystemConfiguration/Kicker.bundle/Resources/restart-lookupd
Jun 8 15:02:43 gunther configd[183]: executing /System/Library/SystemConfiguration/Kicker.bundle/Resources/restart-NetInfo
Jun 8 15:02:43 gunther nibindd[658]: Shutting down NetInfo servers
Jun 8 15:02:43 gunther nibindd[658]: Restarting NetInfo
Jun 8 15:02:43 gunther lookupd[277]: Caught SIGHUP - reset
Jun 8 15:02:43 gunther configd[183]: executing /System/Library/SystemConfiguration/Kicker.bundle/Resources/restart-automount
Jun 8 15:02:43 gunther niutil: NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
Jun 8 15:02:47 gunther last message repeated 3 times
Jun 8 15:03:23 gunther lookupd[277]: NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
Jun 8 15:03:33 gunther configd[183]: executing /System/Library/SystemConfiguration/Kicker.bundle/Resources/restart-lookupd
Jun 8 15:03:33 gunther lookupd[277]: Caught SIGHUP - reset
Jun 8 15:03:33 gunther configd[183]: executing /System/Library/SystemConfiguration/Kicker.bundle/Resources/restart-automount

my connection eventually comes back. but the processor was sweating there for a minute.

[AKcrab]

Maybe we should start a thread on this subject by itself?
I see this oddness in console.log:
The browser wrapper died.
CHBrowserView died.
Jun 8 14:42:51 91-176-58-66-cable lookupd[211]: Caught SIGHUP - reset
Jun 8 14:42:57 91-176-58-66-cable lookupd[211]: Caught SIGHUP - reset

[dkal]

With 35 people reporting in we have about 60% who report an overall improvement after upgrading to 10.1.5 and about 11.5% who are having some fairly serious problems. The remainder aren't noticing any real difference after upgrading.

So, 60% of the upgraders are happy campers. About 30% see no improvement and, most importantly, 11.5% who have upgraded to 10.1.5 are VERY unhappy campers.

Now, based on these results and going back to the original reason for posting this poll, I still don't believe that Apple is doing a great job of beta-testing these new OS X releases before distributing them to the public.

11.5% is a fairly large percentage of people who are having serious problems with this upgrade. Could Apple have foreseen the problems these people are having before releasing 10.1.5? With better testing perhaps they could have.

I've been working with Macs almost exclusively since 1984 and I don't ever recall having such MAJOR problems with OS upgrades prior to any version of OS X. In my experience, Mac OS 9.x upgrades were NEVER as problematic as all of the OS X upgrades seem to be. Perhaps Apple needs to spend a bit more time in QA before it releases any new future version of OS X.

IMHO

[Phil St. Romain]

11.5% is a fairly large percentage of people who are having serious problems with this upgrade. Could Apple have foreseen the problems these people are having before releasing 10.1.5? With better testing perhaps they could have.

I think that's an excellent point. I read one day in MFI that it was seeded to developers, then the next it was available in Software Update. Unless the MFI story broke late, that seemed like an awfully short time to be tested on a wider variety of set-ups.

BTW, still no problems whatsoever, here, but no great improvements, either.

I've been working with Macs almost exclusively since 1984 and I don't ever recall having such MAJOR problems with OS upgrades prior to any version of OS X.

Well, there was a big problem when OS 8.1 was released and it broke everyone's ethernet connectivity. Almost no exceptions on that one. But within a week, they had a new Ethernet extension up for downloading, and it was no big deal to downgrade to OS 8 to wait until it came out.

Phil

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain
...it was no big deal to downgrade to OS 8 to wait until it came out.

Phil
The big diference is, I don't think there is an easy way to revert to 10.1.4, is there?

[mervTormel]

my initial feelings...

11% trouble rate [ 1 in 10 ] ( from our wholly inaccurate sampling ) is some pretty dang good numbers for an OS that's barely a year old and has to deal with some pretty bizarre, even rogue, config'd rigs out there.

if i were a developer, and released a complicated update, i would be ecstatic that only 1 in 10 had issues. carry it out, 10:100, 100:1,000, 1,000:10,000

i'd bet the farm given those odds.

but, i have a feeling our sampling is hinky, but i don't know, statistically, whether it's better or worse than our POV.

IMnsHO, -mT

what say you, QED?

--
47% of all statistics are made up on the fly!

[Reddog]

I have noticed since I installed the 10.1.5 update that my monitor no longer sleeps as deeply as it did before. It's nice in a way because the monitor only takes a few seconds to wake up, whereas before it used to take about 15 sec, The top of the monitor used to get stone cold when it slept, and now it stays a little warm.

It's easy to see that it's using more energy and I no longer feel comfortable leaving it on and sleeping. I can just see the electric bill being sky high at the end of the month :(

By the way, the machine is a G4 DP 533

Pat

[mervTormel]

Originally posted by Reddog
I can just see the electric bill being sky high at the end of the month
i concur. seeing some very strange sleep patterns here, and i can't guess the 'pattern'.

but, in Calif, we can't lite a fart without considering the consequences.

sometimes my Sawtooth (G4/500 with PCI/SCSI) deep sleeps, sometimes, just dozes. on the dozes, monitor won't power down. it remains in that combat nap state, one eye open, ever vigilant.

i can't say it's had consistant circadium rhythms since i got it, stock OS9.1

[Craig R. Arko]

Agreed. The two biggest issues reported (the DHCP loss and the Radeon 7000 courruption) are both wake from sleep problems. I wonder if the fix for all this will involve an Open Firmware update.

I'm with Merv on the 10% case. Back when I was doing military and medical software development we really had to test the crap out of it to get the error down to near zero, for DoD/FDA standards, respectively. A commerical product, like Mac OS, tested to that level would cost the end user maybe $3-5000 a copy. I think instead of paying that I will invest some sweat equity into debugging problems as they occur. ;)

[RacerX]

Hey Craig,

Did you guys install 10.1.5 on the powerbook? And did the additional Rage Pro support seem to make any difference (in performance, not pinkness :rolleyes: )?

[Craig R. Arko]

David: yes, I installed it right away. Julie doesn't really notice a whole lot different. I think the Pismo is based on the Rage 128 chipset anyway. Our main performance issue revolves around trying to decide about whether we like Sprint or not as an ISP.

As for the pink; it's still there. We took it to the Apple bar and they couldn't figure it out, but thought it's the LCD. I'm more convinced than ever it's tied up with this Energy Saver junk, of course, since closing the top is what triggers it.

For others: Pismo FireWire G3, when the lid is partially closed the screen loses sync and also goes off into the pink & green ends of the spectrum. Letting it rest with the LCD at the correct angle restores normal visuals in 30 min - 24 hours, until we need to move it. Video output to a projector does not mirror this problem. Been happening ever since we simultaneously upgraded RAM, hard disk, and put 10.1 on it.

[Phil St. Romain]

Originally posted by AKcrab

The big diference is, I don't think there is an easy way to revert to 10.1.4, is there?

I backed up on an external firewire drive using Carbon Copy Cloner before upgrading, in case I needed to do just that. If I did, the plan was to erase the partition with 10.1.5 and CCC from the external fw drive to the computers. I've done it before and it worked fine. That's the easiest way I know to do it.

[lerkfish]

on a tangent:
if you have a 400 yikes PCI graphic card G4 like me, the ATI updates have never made much difference, being for the more advanced AGP card, and the switch to 10.1.5 is no different.

One thing I tried though, with this last update (unrelated I think to the update) was to disable through extensions manager the ATI components in the Classic system, and now my Diablo II expansion games "seems" more playable...

regarding safe updates. I continue, as I have always done in the past even before OSX, maintained a clone partition that is bootable whenever I upgrade, and keep it until I feel comfortable with the new update.

[dkal]

With 60 votes in, 60% are positive, 17% negative, and the remainder see no difference after upgrading to 10.1.5.

[ebow]

I think that since updating to 10.1.5, Acrobat performance has improved markedly. I haven't really used the app until just now, and I immediately noticed that scrolling (especially by "hand") is much much faster.

I wonder if it could be an effect of using Silk? Or just general 10.1.5 goodness...

[tonyj666]

I know not many people use the built in Sendmail, but I've noticed that it's one of the most frequently referenced problems.

When I updated, sendmail stopped accepting mail for all domains until I changed the permissions for the root (chmod g-w /) and for the mail directory and all subdirectories (chmod g-w /etc/mail and chmod g-w /etc/mail/*).

I don't know the wide ranging implications of such permissions changes, so it scares me a little to make them, but I've noticed that every time there's an update released from apple, the only way to get sendmail working again is to change the permissions as listed above.

However, for the more cautious among you, I've found a set of instructions for setting up sendmail on OSX that had my sendmail server up and running in about 10 minutes. Concise and complete, they were exactly what this UNIX newbie needed. And going back to the site after 10.1.5 screwed my config, I found the instructions updated to compensate for the changes.

So, if you're interested in running sendmail and qpopper as a complete mail solution on OSX, go here: http://www.ish.com.au/show/article_sendmailOSX.html .

Thank open source for simple solutions to complex problems. Getting sendmail running was one of the most daunting problems I've run into with OSX. Keeping it running is the most daunting recurring problem. Luckily, other people are dealing with the same issues and publishing solutions on the web.

Tony

edited url :)

[mervTormel]

tonyxxx, your link is dead and stinking. could you try and wrangle up a valid link for us?

i went to an eclipse viewing tonite, filled with sendmail people, and i claimed "sendmail 8.12 ate my scooby snacks!" they were rather unsympathetic, even moreso when they learned it was OSX.

i overheard talk about plans "when sendmail folds".

is the writing on the wall? i chatted up quite a few of them about how horrible the job market is here, and would later hear their 'desperation' planning and see their wide-eyed disbelief. weird and a little tragic for me. i didn't mean to pee in their wheaties, but that's the reality of it.

i think i might have the ear of a sendmail'r (used to be in a band i recognized, so i chatted him up quite a bit, stroking his ego) and i'm going to try and drink deeply from the toilet of truth there.

it'll prolly be open sourced, but _gawd_, it could use some sanity wrappers!

anyhow, as a market movement, you could consider using/supporting some of the competitors of sendmail.

FYI, -mt

[dkal]

First reactions to 10.1.5 seemed more positive. I think it took a few days before people noticed problems starting to pop up.

Now only 54% see overall improvements after upgrading (a slim majority). 17% of voters are negative (that percentage keeps climbing with more and more votes) and 28% see no difference.

I still haven't upgraded. Anyone think I should risk it?

:confused:

[Craig R. Arko]

Well, you've had a pretty good chance to read about what the issues are, what workarounds exist, and that the same thing doesn't apply to everyone.

So, do you think you will face any of the common issues reported? If you do, then is there a workaround that you feel comfortable with for it? If you do, then it's probably safe for you to upgrade. If not, then wait.

Many folks here have mentioned the value of using something like Carbon Copy Cloner to make a backup prior to performing any update. One could do worse than follow that advice.

[miscdebris]

For those looking for a more comprehensive explanation of how to get Sendmail running again under 10.1.5, take a look at Chris Stone's O'Reilly MacDev article here:

http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2002/06/07/sendmail_1015.html

FYI, if you don't need to run Sendmail as a daemon, don't set the MAILSERVER=-YES- option in your hostconfig file like the O'Reilly article suggests-- Sendmail will take *forever* to initialize each time you reboot your machine. If you're just using Sendmail periodically you shouldn't need to run it as a daemon (but it largely depends on what you're doing with it).

And lastly, the O'Reilly article is correct-- you'll need to run *two* instances of Sendmail. It's not a typo.

cheers.

[themagpie]

I experienced my first kernel panic after installing OSX.1.5. Since I have an applecare contract, I called tech support but, alas, theycouldn't help me. I had to initialize my hard disk. I stupidly let software update give me a composite update from X.1 to X.5. So far so good, but I'm a little nervous.

Margie

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by themagpie
I experienced my first kernel panic after installing OSX.1.5. Since I have an applecare contract, I called tech support but, alas, theycouldn't help me. I had to initialize my hard disk. I stupidly let software update give me a composite update from X.1 to X.5. So far so good, but I'm a little nervous.

Margie

Just Curious.. Why did you need to initialize your disk because of a kernel panic? After the panic you couldn't even boot, or what? Seems like very drastic measures.

[themagpie]

The mac tech support guy tried for 45 minutes to get me out of it and couldn't. We finally decided that I had no other option. What else could I have done?

Margie

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by themagpie
The mac tech support guy tried for 45 minutes to get me out of it and couldn't. We finally decided that I had no other option. What else could I have done?

Margie
I'm no expert, and I've only had two kernel panics ever (one of which I brought on myself), but I just held down the power button for a few seconds, forcing the computer to turn off. Turning it back on resulted in no further problems.

[mervTormel]

just because you're talking to apple tech support doesn't mean you're getting the sharpest tool in the shed. one must take drastic advice with a grain of salt, and then look elsewhere (here) for coroborration.

[themagpie]

We tried the "power key" trick about 6 or 7 times without it working. Someone on the Techsurvivors' site just suggested that holding down the space bar during start-up would get you out of a kernel panic. Of course,I icouldn't get online with the iMac. What I should have done is hook my cable modem up to my iBook and gone to the forums. You're right about apple tech support. They are far from infallible. However, they probably know more than I do. At any rate. I have a freshly installed system and I lost no data as I always back up. It did take about 10 hours work though.


Margie

[theladyboo]

I installed 10.1.5 with few problems except for rebuilding sendmail and a php upgrade. I was quite happy until today. My web server is FRIED! I couldn't get tcsh to work so I did some permission changes. It didn't fix it. I rebooted the server and poof! OS is GONE. Well, I don't know if it's GONE or not. Can't get that far. Obviously there is something there because it can boot for a second.

error is:
panic (cpu 0) unable to find driver for this platform: pwermac 3.3

then it says darwin 1.3. aren't we up to darwin 1.4?

Anyway a lot of people seem to be having this problem on the apple discussions board.

[theladyboo]

i have been trying all day to revive my web server from the dreaded 10.1.5 kernel panic and so have many others. i can't reformat until i make absolutely sure. until then though... my business is DOWN.

[Craig R. Arko]

You should start a thread in the 'System' forum about the kernel panic issue. Maybe someone will have an idea about this.

[gvitale]

:D
Hi there,
I run it since few days and I haven't had any problems so far.
I installed OS X in December, I use it every day all day long, for office, college teaching, mailing, web browsing, light dev., both under Quartz and XFree and I haven't experienced a single kernel panic since.
All I can say is that the iBook/MacOSX combination is REALLY stable, much more than Linux (SuSe 7.3) on the same machine.
Performance though is better under Linux:(

[macmath]

My 10.1.5 (home and work) update went smoothly and very well. I think I notice a speed increase. I wonder if perhaps fewer people would have difficulty with Apple updates if the ran a utility such as DiskWarrior before they installed.

I run DiskWarrior before each update and I've never had a problem with an update (not that this is proof of anything). DiskWarrior frequently finds something that fsck and DFA do not. One time it repaired something that fsck and DFA claimed to repair but continued to find after each restart (some node count was off by 2). [Somewhat off topic, but I also think that a cheap ($100-150) back-up power source really helps keep disk errors down by keeping the current steady].

[chug]

Once I fixed the sendmail thingy up so I could get my cron job output mailed to me. All was good and dandy.

Sadly Ive noticed no speed ups. But that could be cos I dont play with it much except run Dnet :)

Altho IE 5.2 seemed nice and fast now. And the Fonts do look better. But eh, Im sure the next update will do better :)

[ebow]

Well I originally voted that I noticed overall improvements, and I suppose I did. It felt a bit faster, at least. But then the no-network-on-wake-from-sleep thing started getting to me. My gauge of that problem is Mail.app -- if clicking "Go Online" fails for a few time, or clicking "Get Mail" doesn't take it online after a few clicks, I'm highly annoyed. So, I found and installed the nnasfp.pkg patch, which really helped. Then I ran the Networking Updater, and that re-introduced the problem. What's more, once in a while, apps stop responding one-by-one until the whole damn system is hung up, and I have to reboot. This is by far the least reliable my computer has been since, say, 10.0.3 or so. I reapplied the nnasfp.pkg patch, and it's somewhat improved, but sites and email take a LONG time to reach initially. :mad: Sorry if this has been covered in detail above; I was following along for a bit, but lost track of the griping when things were working well for me. Now, of course, I gripe away.

[lerkfish]

FWIW, Mail.app has been reliably unreliable from the beginning, even before this last update, which doesn not fix it entirely.
If I ever have a hang or anything, my first thing to do is force quite mail.app.

I've heard jaguar has a better mail.app...and I hope that's true.

[ebow]

Amen to that... I'm quite eager for "late summer." However, my current problem extends to websites and Eudora getting in touch with servers, so I can't blame it solely on Mail.app. Not that you were suggesting I should...