Rating the Mac OS X web browsers - #2.

[Phil St. Romain]

Note: you may vote without posting a comment.

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Our previous poll (http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1412) on this topic went from March through June 2002. Several significant browser updates happened in that time, which probably influenced browser preferences . . . maybe! Let's see how it goes.

- - -

Still a Mozilla user, here, with Omniweb 4.1 often open as well. I like tabbed browsing, and even dip into Composer and Messenger at times. Mozilla 1.0 is fast, stable, and handles javascript and java very well now.

I like the way Chimera is coming along, but it's still too spotty in a lot of areas for me to use seriously. IE is there for certain special jobs, but I use it as little as possible. I've just finally gone ahead and deleted iCab and Opera, even though they are also quite decent. I just wasn't using them.

It seems OS X already has a good slate of browsers and the ones we have will continue to improve.

[AKcrab]

Still mozilla for me as well. Omni just doesn't offer me anything to justify paying for a browser.
I don't utilize the mail module, as I'm am a HUGE believer in the 'oh so sweet' bounce command, and with a <rumor>big update</rumor> in jaguar, I can't see switching in the near future.
I need to try the composer portion soon, as I don't really have a suitable html editor that runs in X.
I can't wait for Mach-O to be ready. It's sooo close, but I don't really understand how development for Mach-O is proceeding, given the effort being applied to chimera.
There truly are many fine choices for X.

(Phil, isn't AOL using gecko?)

[macmath]

Mozilla has been rock-solid and fast for me since the last two releases...never a crash. It works on all the sites I go to, including my bank. Plus, I really love the fact that I can open a link in a new tab while remaining in the current tab to read while the other loads. I can load a half-dozen links from a page and read through the page with neither a poliferation of windows, nor having send to the background the window that just opened with the new link. In addition, I love the fact that I can keep unrequested pop-up windows from opening. I have not investigated the mail client as I use Mail.app, but I'm very interested in the 'bouncing' option mentioned in the above post by AKcrab. I like Chimera too, but it is too early to adopt it as the sole browser. I just got a new eMac at work, and I must confess I only used IE to download Mozilla and then I threw it in the trash.

By the way. I accidentally hit the edit button at the end of AKcrab's post and the post appeared in front of me acting like it was going to let me edit someone else's post. I did not try because I did not want to change someone else's post, but I thought I'd let you know so that you could see if some 'permissions' need to be adjusted, Phil. I feel a little funny calling a stranger by his first name, but (1) we have the Macintosh in common, and (2) I grew up several miles west of Tyler Road (Wichita, KS) so I did it anyway.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by macmath
I have not investigated the mail client as I use Mail.app, but I'm very interested in the 'bouncing' option mentioned in the above post by AKcrab.
Bounce can be added to your standard mail toolbar by right-clicking the toolbar, or choosing 'customize toolbar' under 'view'. If you don't want a button on the toolbar, the bounce feature is located under 'message' -- 'bounce to sender' (and there is a keyboard shortcut.) It makes the message be returned to sender, and if the spammer is paying attention to returned mail, you may end up off the list. It's not perfect, but I have been bouncing like a madman for a week, and my spam has reduced to only one message today. A week ago, I was getting 10+ crappy messages, so I really think it can work.
(btw: I don't think it would have let you edit my message, even though it appears as if you can..)

Tabbed browsing rocks!

[nkuvu]

It's all about appearance for me. So I use OmniWeb. I like how well it integrates with Aqua, and I like how well it works with ad-blocking and pop-up blocking. And command clicking will open a new window behind the current one, so that's not a problem.

Speed may be an issue for others, but since I am on dial up, everything is slow. I miss tabbed browsing, but I really dislike the way Mozilla looks.

All personal preferences, of course.

[melg]

I've been using OmniWeb (http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omniweb/) pretty exclusively. For me it's fast (considering I'm on a dialup), and I really enjoy the pop-up ad blocking. It has become my favorite browser and I have let the programmers know that by registering it. :D

I've been playing with Mozilla (http://www.mozilla.org) for a couple of weeks now and as others have said, the tabs are really cool. I like using them especially when needing to find a reference and returning to my originating page. It has become my second browser for getting the rare page that has trouble with OW. The one thing I don't like about Mozilla is that it doesn't feel very much like OS X.

I've kept IE on my system just for the hell of it, but do not use it at all. Occasionally some program will automatically load IE for reading a help file but I have not even bothered upgrading it. The first time I had a program crash on me in OS X, it was IE... I guess first impressions mean a lot to me.;)

[AHunter3]

Sticking with iCab with no complaints.

I did manage to install lynx and get to this site with it, but couldn't handle the logon procedure.

[vonleigh]

Still using Omniweb as my main browser, I think it's elegant simple and very well done. I also like the included spellchecking (which I can have it check as I type in both english and spanish thanks to CocoASpell).

I've been trying Chimera and it works really well, pretty fast too. I use Mozilla only to connect to my bank, and for this it works perfectly.


Vonleigh

[Morpheus]

Can someone tell me why Mozilla is better. I mean i use it and its decently fast but im not saying its bad.. Its just IE is standard to the world and i wouldnt think Mozilla would suppport everything. But i guess ill start trying it out. I still think Chimera is fast and cool and it uses the Mozilla engine...

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Can someone tell me why Mozilla is better. I mean i use it and its decently fast but im not saying its bad.. Its just IE is standard to the world and i wouldnt think Mozilla would suppport everything. But i guess ill start trying it out. I still think Chimera is fast and cool and it uses the Mozilla engine...
I've got two words for you that will change your browsing forever:
Tabbed Browsing

You would be suprised at the standards compliance of Mozilla. If a site doesn't work, it's because it's been coded for IE not because Mozilla won't support it.

Keep an eye on the Mach-O (unix back end) version of Mozilla. Mach-O and Chimera are the fastest things I've surfed with on the Mac.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by AKcrab

I've got two words for you that will change your browsing forever:
Tabbed Browsing

You would be suprised at the standards compliance of Mozilla. If a site doesn't work, it's because it's been coded for IE not because Mozilla won't support it.

Keep an eye on the Mach-O (unix back end) version of Mozilla. Mach-O and Chimera are the fastest things I've surfed with on the Mac.

Yeah they are fast I have both Mozilla and Chimera but not Mach-O...
Ill check that one out.

[phidauex]

The reason mozilla is making a big splash right now is because of one thing, STANDARDS. Mozilla supports the official W3C display standards better than any other browser, bar none. IE mac is pretty good, much better than IE windows, but still lacks in some areas. Omniweb, despite looking beautiful, still mangles CSS2 support, destroys any box-model layout, and doesn't even fully support CSS1, mangling any fixed-background tags that aren't in the body, and so on.

When i design a website, I design it to strict standards, everything I write validates as correct, standard HTML. If a browser does not display it properly, it is because it is an inferior product. Now, i don't go out of my way to make webpages that most browsers can't display, but i won't pander to IE when they refuse to support standards, and then lie about their level of standards compliance. If an IE user doesn't view my site correct, screw them. ;) A mozilla user will see all of my sites perfectly, in exactly the way I intended them to be viewed, and this is true with any website that has been designed to be standards compliant.

The other nice thing about mozilla is its XUL interface. The mozilla core can be easily ported from OS to OS, and then have the XUL layer dropped on top, and you have a usable browser. Mozilla looks and feels the same in OS X, OS 9, Linux, Windows, Sun, BSD, etc. I work on many platforms of computers, and with mozilla, I only have to learn one interface, and I've learned it for them all. This is in contrast to IE who has seperate development teams for the windows and mac versions. They spend a lot of time and money developing two totally different pieces of software instead of pooling their energy into making ONE good crossplatform browser.

Also, mozilla is free. Not just 'no cost' but open source. Development in open source software moves faster than closed source software because developers can share information more effectively. If you visit http://www.mozdev.org you will find numerous projects and addons to mozilla that people are working on. None of those would be possible without open source. You can try out some very cool new innovations in browsing, such as tabbed browsing, mouse gestures, etc.

I currently have Mozilla 1.1a, omniweb 4.1 and IE 5.2 installed on my mac, and use them all to check pages, but Mozilla is my main browser. Omniweb really is attractive, and I can see why it attracts people. Those nice aqua buttons, smooth antialiased text, clever interface, etc, are all very cool, but until Omniweb can support CSS1 and CSS2, I find it mangles most of the pages I visit. Mozilla 1.1a adds quartz antialiasing, which makes it almost as beautiful as Omniweb, but with all the power and standards support of the mozilla engine. IE is the 'standard', so i keep it around for posterity, but I almost never use it. The quartz antialiasing in 5.2 is a nice touch, but still not enough to convince me to use it more regularly.

Anyway, the web is moving towards standards compliance, the bitter 4.x browser wars are behind us, and its time to think about the future. If browsers agree to conform to standards, and designers write valid code, then soon you'll be able to use whatever browser you like, including braille browsers and audio browsers for the disabled, pda and cell phone browsers, cross platform browsers, embedded browsers, etc, and webpages will look good on all of them.

Anyway, sorry to rant! I like mozilla :)

peace,
phidauex

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by phidauex
Anyway, sorry to rant! I like mozilla :)

That wasn't a rant, it was a sermon! Preach it brother! :p
(and welcome to the forum)

[phidauex]

thanks for the cheerful welcome ;)

I'm currently enjoying mouse gestures on Mozilla, http://optimoz.mozdev.org/gestures/index.html

They are like palm OS's graffiti text, but for browser navigation. You click a button of your choice, keyboard or on the mouse, and then twitch the mouse in a little predefined pattern, up for a new tab, down to close the current tab, right for forward, left for back, etc. Its a pretty interesting way to browse, and a neat little tool. Its still only in version .3, but its coming along nicely. They are also working on a pie menu type interface (http://www.piemenus.com).

peace,
phidauex

[chug]

Mozilla and tabliture browsing.. Converting people is so easy ;)

[chug]

Downloaded Chimera and it looks okies. More prefs woul d be nice. It wouldnt let me use a 10.0.0.1 addy to check out my stuff on my webserver. That sucked. Other than that and the loading time, it looks good too :)

[scowls]

I voted for Opera, but largely on the basis of what it will (could?) be. I have to use a Windows PC at work and Opera for Windows is really sweet. A couple of features have won my heart:

1 - Autopreferences: Disable Pop-up windows
Just what it sounds, this stops the pop-ups. When I get to a site that uses pop-ups legitimately, I just reenable this for the one-offs

2 - Full scalability
This allows you to set the magnification of the entire page you are looking at. Changing the setting enlarges or shrinks everything on the page, graphics, text, the whole thing. This is a life saver at times when a page has a fixed size and you are working on a lap top... It's also quite handy for those websites that set really small text.

3 - Full Graphics Control
This allows you to load all graphics, turn off graphics completely, or only show graphics that are already loaded. This is awesome when you have a slow connection (either on your end or on the website's end).

4 - Add bookmark here....
Allows you to save a bookmark exactly where you want it in one step.


I'm not sure what you folks mean by "tabbed" browsing, but it sounds like what Opera's been doing for a while, which allows you to load sites in the background while you look at the other sites (Command key and then a number switches between windows if you don't want to grab the mouse).

Another plus is that, like Mozilla, Opera works real hard at sticking to published standards. Most sites load up fine, though there are a fair number with fancy Microsoft specific programming that require me to load up the old IE....

Unfortunately, Opera's OS X browser is only in the beta stage and it currently lacks the pop-up control of its windows version. It's also crashes a bit much. Opera claims they are working on a new version, but there is no evidence of when it will be coming out.

As for paying for the browser - only companies like Microsoft or open source projects like Mozilla (an AOL/Time Warner effort by the way) can afford to give away software. It's worth supporting companies like Opera and iCab to give Microsoft and AOL some competition. :D

Best,
Shawn

[nkuvu]

I use Opera on my Windows box at work. And to reply:

1. Disabling pop-up windows. Only half-effective. Mozilla and OmniWeb enable you to disable automatic pop-up windows. Specifically, javascripts can't open windows themselves. But if you click on a link which specifies a new window, you'll get one. This is particularly useful for sites which use small pop-up windows for definitions (for example). Opera can't distinguish between the pop-up windows I want and the ones I don't. :(

2. Full scalability. I don't use this, so I don't know if Moz/OW support it. In fact, the only time I scale windows is if I accidentally hold the control key down while scrolling...

3. Full graphics control. The ability to load only cached images is nice (every browser I have ever seen has the ability to disable images entirely). Moz/OW can also filter images. So images from certain servers (ad*, for example) are not loaded, while the rest of the page's images are loaded. I prefer the Moz/OW method.

4. Add bookmark here... I think OW has the best system for bookmarks -- drag and drop. But once again, I don't use this at all. I have an HTML file which I edit by hand when changing bookmarks. It's kind of a pain, but it means that I can load my bookmarks in any browser, on any platform, immediately.

Tabbed browsing is exactly the same as the "Window bar" in Opera. Yes, Opera has had this for a long time, and I have no preference as to their implementation or Mozilla's. I love this feature in both. If only OW had it...

Anyway, I am currently using Opera on Windows, as I mentioned, and a mix of Mozilla and OmniWeb on OS X. If you read back, I mentioned that "for me, it's all about appearance" which is why I use OW. But the tabbed browsing makes me very happy, so I've been changing that stance... Just so no one thinks I'm being hypocritical. :)

[Phil St. Romain]

We've got enough votes in to be able to comment on patterns, and what's obvious is how much Mozilla has improved. It was #3 in the previous poll, and IE has slipped from #1 to #3. Guess those upgrades didn't help much! ;)

[dvice]

Okay, Okay, you've convinced me...

I'm downloading Mozila as we speak, I have always felt guilty leaving Netscape and using IE, so this may ease my conscience and alow me to once again have a M$ free Mac.

I'll let you know what I think.

[dvice]

I must say at first "glance"I am very impressed . I have been able to use everything that I normally do, but with out the ad boxes everywhere, very nice. And I can see how I will use the tabbed windows instead of new windows. I found the tabs down the side a bit much, but it was easy to get rid of them.

I had looked at downloading Mozila before, but the "this is an alpha release" always stopped me. Thanks for changing my mind.

Does anyone know how well Mozila works with the iTools / .Mac features?

Thanks.

[Jacques]

OmniWeb (and everything else by the OmniGroup) is totally Mac, very elegant and comfortable. These guys love Mac OS X and it definately shows. I enjoy all of the little blessings that Cocoa programs inherit.

Mozilla is awesome at the heart (tabs tabs tabs), but is NOT very pretty. Let's see what happens with the Chimera project, a Cocoa Mozilla would be very nice.. who knows what AOL has up their sleeves? (we're not the only one looking either)

iCab was awesome in the pre-X days, never touched anything different - totally different story now.

Netscape? A nightmare.. Opera? nice on Windoze but not with Mac.. IE? an ugly staple that works very well, I hope it gets radically uplifted soon (barely touch it, however)

---

I wonder if OmniGroup is listening, will OmniWeb have tabs soon?

[rgray]

I like Mozilla but would be much happier without the mail and news components. I happen to like Mail.app.

[Jacques]

This here thread (http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2512&highlight=mozilla+mail) might assist you with your Mozilla email blues..

[nkuvu]

:cool:

Thanks for the tip.

[rgray]

Yeah, thanks about the tip. I had tried Chimera a while ago and found it wanting, however the poll got me thinking again. Two requirements for a browser for me are that it run my bank and WebCT. Omni, whose appearance I like, kackhs on both. While posting my reply yesterday, I was downloading Chimera 0.4. And guess what? It happily runs both bank and WebCT - and faster than anything else I have tried. Why did they change the name to Navigator? 'Chimera' was soooo cool and unique while 'Navigator' is kinda tired old news..... After much browsing I've blown off Omni and Mozilla. Go Chimera!.. and restore the name....

[AKcrab]

The chimera name was already taken by another project, if memory serves me correctly.
I tried .4, but got *very* tired of command-w to close tabs. Give me a widget, darnit!
It keeps getting better and better, though!

[gmleeii]

I will not use a microsoft product unless someone puts a gun to my head. I use Chimera nonstop and every once in a while I use mozilla. Before OS X I only used Netscape 4.78. I never went to 6. Anyway my vote is for chimera

[Mikey-San]

Originally posted by phidauex
Anyway, the web is moving towards standards compliance, the bitter 4.x browser wars are behind us, and its time to think about the future.
This is the biggest bunch of crap I've heard today.

If the Web were moving toward standards, Microsoft wouldn't sell millions of dollars' worth of FrontPage every year. (At the university where I work, FP 2002 is more popular than cute girls in glasses.) FrontPage writes the worst HTML in the history of computers--and that's really quite an understatement. Even GoLive isn't this bad. That's not saying much at all, by the way.

Feel free to run a validation check on $RANDOM_WEBSITE with the validator at the W3C's site (www.w3c.org).

Hell, IE on Windows doesn't even support the PNG format worth a damn--a very nice format, indeed--but yet, it supports <MARQUEE>, a tag which technically doesn't even exist. So what do you see on Web sites?

<MARQUEE>A BIG FAT LINE OF SCROLLING TEXT, THAT'S WHAT.</MARQUEE>

Also, browsers tend not to agree on CSS, HTML, or JavaScript, as well, and this is reflected in the massive amounts of terrible, psuedo-proprietary, broken code out there in the Web jungle.

Standards my butt. The browser wars may be behind us, but that hasn't necessarily made the Web experience any better.


-/-
Mikey-San

[phidauex]

Originally posted by Mikey-San

Standards my butt. The browser wars may be behind us, but that hasn't necessarily made the Web experience any better.
[/B]

I see your point, that the web has a long way to go still, but most of the pseudo-proprietary code you speak of is either left behind from old webpages, or is being written by developers who have fallen behind the times. Those developers are either making personal pages, or aren't going to be in as high of demand (unless they work for Microsoft).

At the university where I work, Dreamweaver is the popular web developer program (besides BBedit, which is my favorite). The new version of it produces pretty good code. You can make it produce valid XHTML and CSS by default, which is very handy. We even teach classes on Dreamweaver, because we think its pretty slick (and compliant).

The browser wars are mostly over, that is true. Microsoft is still trying to slip things in, but not with the vigor of 4-5 years ago.

Standards compliance has made MY web browsing experience much better over the past year or two. Nearly all of the websites I visit are either standards compliant, or have only some basic mistakes. I haven't seen a webpage with the <marquee> tag in over a year (I'm not saying it isn't still being used by some bozos, just that my sphere of browsing on the web doesn't lead to those bozos' websites).

Anyway, I never meant to imply that the web is a heaven of standards compliance, simply that standards compliance is now a valid option, both for browsing and web developing. 4 years ago, the concept of a fully standards compliant browser was ludicrous, as was the concept of a fully compliant webpage. But today I can use a browser that is almost perfectly compliant and see all the webpages I want, and I can write standards compliant pages that are viewable by any modern browser (and most older browsers too, incidentally). The fact that compliance is now a valid option is what I'm happy about.

peace,
phidauex

[mervTormel]

standards are great! everybody has one!

[meancode]

i started out using OmniWeb all the way, only using IE when need be. i have changed. i use Mozilla 1.1b now, there is very, very little that i need IE for. even though OmniWeb 4.1 is out, and it blocks adds, and i own a license for it, i still really dig the tabbed browsing, and such great support for all the technologies of Mozilla. Omni still doesnt have the full gamet of javascript and CSS support.

[hschickel]

Phil,

I've voted for Omniweb in the last 2 polls. While lacking somewhat in true HTML support, it's faster than IE and much more stable if you don't ask it to do much with Java. Omni has no problems with 25 windows open - with IE I was holding my breath when the number got over 5.

Since 9/9 I've been using Chimera (http://www.versiontracker.com/moreinfo.fcgi?id=14326&db=mac). This browser is quite rough around the edges - but - THE SPEED THE SPEED!!! It's like running IE5.1.5 in Classic. It's so fast - and the TABBED BROWSING!!! I'm not sure how I lived without it. As a nice aside - the java support blows Omni away.

I think it's time to do a new poll. Chimera is one hell of a contender now the .5 is out. Speed, stability, java - I want to change my vote.

Hugh

ps - for anyone still using IE - like other Mozilla non-commercial variants and Omniweb - pop up blocking is in place.