Bandwidth Available for Avatars?

[Andrew LaGow]

Rob--

Any chance of having avatars on the board, or do bandwidth limitations preclude them?

Andy

[Craig R. Arko]

Andy, I think it's a bad idea. Though I know how you got it.

There's a potential privacy issue involving IP address harvesting that this could open up. I'd rather not go into detail beyond that, but I'd prefer if we don't contribute to it.

[Andrew LaGow]

I had absolutely no idea. My avatar is gone from that "other" board ASAP.

Andy

[Craig R. Arko]

It's not that big a deal; but prevention beats damage control any time. I set out my reasons in a PM to you.

You can leave your image there; it really doesn't make any difference.

[Phil St. Romain]

Please say more about the IP address harvesting, Craig. I have my web site URL posted publicly anyway, so I'm not sure what difference that would make for me.

[Craig R. Arko]

Well, it's pretty simple. If I host my image from my web server and post in a thread, anyone who simply views that thread will likely download that image, yes?

When they do my server log captures the time-stamped IP address of the client. Collect that data over several days or a few weeks and do a little comparing and it won't be too hard to start correlating IP's to people. Think of it like the 1 pixel GIF cookie planting scheme, that happen at so many web sites now. Now all one has to do is find the right market research firm willing to buy that data.

It may even be possible to plant a cookie along with the avatar image; I'm not planning on finding this out though.

But see how this differs from posting a link to an image that people need to click (opt-in) to view? This is a little more insidious and the only thing to do about it from the client is to block images, which few folks do.

Sorry if this seems picky; network security/privacy is one of my ongoing research projects. :)

[Andrew LaGow]

Craig, the more I think about this the less of a threat it seems to be to me. The reason for that is that site admins already have access to IP addresses and seem to be able to link them up with individual accounts. If memory serves, this is one of the methods site admins have for sniffing out banned users.

If that's the case, who needs to go to the trouble of planting cookies? They've already got it.

Unless, that is, you're talking about a third party (which doesn't seem to be the case)...?

[mervTormel]

andy, i think one of the issues here is that if the hint sites were to enable avatars, we would have to compose and publish a bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo caveats that could entangle the sites' and owner's intentions.

craig, is that any where near accurate?

[Craig R. Arko]

Anybody who posts an image from a web server they can access the log file on can do this. That's the key; where does the image come from and who can track it?

That's a different thing than the admins of a site like this logging IP's for administrative tasks. We've already entered into a privacy agreement with you about when that data may be used.

Do you see the difference? I never said it was a huge threat, but it is a threat.


Edit - Merv, I just don't see that the benefits outweigh even a remote chance of aiding some evildoer's cause. ;)

Edit2 - But I'm not the only one with a say in this, either.

[Andrew LaGow]

merv, I'm not arguing for the use of avatars on OSX Hints. I was curious because it's all the rage on another board I go to a lot and I had fun designing and drawing my own silly little character. I accept the determination of the folks running this site that avatars are not what they want.

What I'm now trying to understand more completely is how safe we are posting an avatar anywhere, given Craig's interesting info about IP address harvesting. Perhaps the OS X Hints Feedback Forum is no longer appropriate for this wider-ranging inquiry and discussion.

[Craig R. Arko]

Andy: you posting an avatar does nothing to increase your vulnerability to what I'm getting at. The threat is as simple as clicking on a thread where someone else has embedded an image. You download their image automatically and make an entry in a log whether you even know what an avatar is. Of course this is something we all do all the time anyway, which is why it's not a huge deal.

I think you're right about this not being the best place to carry on this discussion though. My apologies if I've hijacked your thread. :eek:

[Andrew LaGow]

Heck no, Craig! Your postings are what have made this thread so fascinating. Please don't apologize.

Besides, I've been known to hijack a thread or two... :D

Andy

[Phil St. Romain]

Agreed that it's not off-thread in that we're discussing the pros and cons of feedback given.

I follow your points, Craig, and they make sense. Thanks for the explanations.

Re. this site, I have no strong opinion either way about avatars (except I wish they weren't called that!). If it overly complicates our agreement with forum members and runs up the bandwidth, then those are reasons enough to keep that option disabled. Then there's the security issues you raised . . .

[mervTormel]

Originally posted by Phil St. Romain
...I have no strong opinion either way about avatars (except I wish they weren't called that!)...
Good Vishnu, Phil, you're so literal!

the etymology is curious, tho...


From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Avatar \Av`a*tar"\, n. [Skr. avat[^a]ra descent; ava from + root
t[.r] to cross, pass over.]
1. (Hindoo Myth.) The descent of a deity to earth, and his
incarnation as a man or an animal; -- chiefly associated
with the incarnations of Vishnu.

2. Incarnation; manifestation as an object of worship or
admiration.

From Jargon File (4.3.0, 30 APR 2001):

avatar n. Syn. [in Hindu mythology, the incarnation of a god] 1. Among
people working on virtual reality and cyberspace interfaces, an
"avatar" is an icon or representation of a user in a shared virtual
reality. The term is sometimes used on MUDs. 2. [CMU, Tektronix]
root, superuser. There are quite a few Unix machines on which the
name of the superuser account is `avatar' rather than `root'. This quirk
was originated by a CMU hacker who found the terms `root' and
`superuser' unimaginative, and thought `avatar' might better impress
people with the responsibility they were accepting.

boy, i don't grok any of this avatar/ip harvesting stuff. but, i also don't want any more explanation.

except, maybe, this one: are you telling me that for every avatar i see, the image comes from the avatar owner's host and not the current site? and isn't that a design problem? and wouldn't that lead to an awful lot of bork'd avatar images where the host is unavailable? feel free to ignore my questions.

--
Generally speaking, nightshirts and fancy titles are a waste of time.

[Craig R. Arko]

Originally posted by mervTormel
except, maybe, this one: are you telling me that for every avatar i see, the image comes from the avatar owner's host and not the current site? and isn't that a design problem? and wouldn't that lead to an awful lot of bork'd avatar images where the host is unavailable? feel free to ignore my questions.

That depends entirely on the forum software and its configuration. Some cache the image locally at the forum server and some pull it from a URL. It's the second kind that would be the problem. I have seen plenty of bork'd signature images at MacNN because the servers were not available.

I don't know what vBulletin does. I don't really want to, either. :D

[mervTormel]

i see. thanx, craig. i don't visit many avatar'd sites. noisier than times square during the holidays.

[griffman]

My $0.02 on the issue...

The primary reason for the lack of avatars is aesthetic. On a forum designed for general conversation, they make a ton of sense - they can help convey a sense of the user's personality, their background, whatever they want to project.

On a site such as this one, however, I think the message is the important part, not necessarily the eye candy that goes with avatars (and images in signatures, for that matter). On sites with both enabled, I often times have trouble finding the content amongst all the blinking lights and flashing backgrounds.

If I could, I would probably enable avatars in the Coat Room, but vBulletin only offers on/off options, not on a per-forum basis...

-rob.

[mervTormel]

heh. that's right, rob. the message is often difficult enough to figure out without all the blinkenlights.

[Andrew LaGow]

Make sense to me.

By the way, I absolutely detest the coopting of the word avatar as well. I've been ticked off for years over media--and marketing in particular--use of the word "cyberspace."

Completely nicked from William Gibson and having nothing to do with his vision of a "matrix." (And don't get me started on that title, although I loved the movie.)

Andy

[robarmo]

At the end of the day, if you are experiencing serious problems with your machine(s), it`d take a lot more than a little cartoon character to cheer me up, let alone solve my problems. I think it`s safe to say that the majority of users here visit for information, and to help others where they can. It`s already a friendly forum, and if you REALLY need to convey emotions, isn`t that what the Smilies/Emoticons are for?

(Thats my contribution anyway.)

Rob.

[Andrew LaGow]

Well, what I really wanted to convey was my silly little Baryonyx drawing that I worked (not) so hard on. It's all about branding, you see.

But I'm a big boy. I can live without it, cute as it is. :)

[mervTormel]

well, can we see it? can you post it somewhere?

[Andrew LaGow]

Okey doke. Your funeral. (http://homepage.mac.com/lagow/downloads/)

Just click on the Preview icon for baryonyx.jpg. I have a better one worked up but not finished--he's at the beach holding a mixed drink. This one looks like he's looking over his back while doing something naughty, which was not exactly what I intended. It's all in the stripes, which I personally believe clash just wonderfully with the background blue of my little beast, but definitely do not indicate a tummy.

Live and learn.

Andy

[Andrew LaGow]

Okay, just for kicks, I threw up the unfinished "Beach Boy Baryonyx," at the same address as above.

For those of you who are curious about just what a baryonyx (http://flood.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/dino/imgl.dsml?type_id=89&Genus=Baryonyx) is, it's a late-cretaceous dinosaur that has big teeth, a crocodile-like head on a long neck and very long, impressive claws. It's thought baryonyx ate fish.

Anyway, for a while it was my youngest boy's favorite dinosaur. These days I think he's leaning towards parasaurolophus, possibly only because he's the ony one who can pronounce it correctly.

Andy

[Phil St. Romain]

Originally posted by mervTormel
Good Vishnu, Phil, you're so literal!

LOL! Well, how DID that term become used for those digital images? It's quite a stretch from the usual sense of the word.

[Craig R. Arko]

Back when everybody thought Virtual Reality was the next big thing, they borrowed the usage of the term 'avatar' from SciFi author William Gibson, who used it to refer to the cyberspace counterpart of the user, in parallel to the original meaning of a divine beings' physical counterpart.

Since VR fell down went boom, the term has stuck to mean one's online visual proxy, which is usually just a picture now.

[Phil St. Romain]

Ahh, well, that makes sense. Thanks. :)

[bassi]

Avatar = Residual Self Image

That's a nice skew on things from "The Matrix"

[nkuvu]

I don't see a problem with avatars, but then again I spend more time at a site which has them.

If you're concerned about the flashing colors and bells and whistles that you don't want, turn off your images. I see a lot worse blinky stuff when browsing random pages on the web.

Honestly, I don't care if they're here or not, but some of the arguments against them seem a little weak.

I'm not familiar with the vBulletin software, but I'd imagine that you could disable the option to load avatars from an URL. This would mean dedicating space on the server to store the images, which may or may not be an acceptable solution. But if this was possible it would prevent the IP harvesting you were speaking of.

Content is totally up to the user, not the bells and whistles enabled. For example, even on this site I could make a message like
:) :D ;) :eek: :cool: :rolleyes: :mad:

Annoying? You betcha. But the reason I don't (aside from the total lack of desire to make such a message) is that the people around me aren't doing the same. What I'm trying to say is that it's not the features that make the content, nor does the lack of features make the content better.

[mystique]

Originally posted by Craig R. Arko
I don't know what vBulletin does. I don't really want to, either. :D

I have a lovely avatar of sour grapes just for you. :D

Yes, tortoise...making my usual points with my first post in true form.:cool:

[Craig R. Arko]

Hello, CB. :)

I prefer cranberry-apple.

[mystique]

;) I'll see what I can do for you.

You must the THE MAN around here, eh?

Please forgive my rather sarcastic sense of humor and know that it's meant all in good fun.

Thank you for allowing me to visit your board. I look forward to getting to know it and you and the others better in the very near future.

Cheers.

Myst=-

[mystique]

WHOA....hold the phone a sec...you called me
CB? CB died a most painful death from a fragmented broken heart.

Who are you and how do you know who I am?

Craig...Craig...I don't recall any Craig...

NKUVU!! HELP!!!!!

[yellow]

Call me a thread-necromancer.

Quoth the raven: Back when everybody thought Virtual Reality was the next big thing, they borrowed the usage of the term 'avatar' from SciFi author William Gibson, who used it to refer to the cyberspace counterpart of the user, in parallel to the original meaning of a divine beings' physical counterpart.

Actually, I believe the use of the word 'Avatar' as an image of one's self in cyber-realities was coined by Neal Stephenson in the book Snow Crash. Which if you haven't read, is worth the read. How can you not like a book where the main character is named Hiro Protagonist? :D

[hayne]

Originally posted by yellow
Actually, I believe the use of the word 'Avatar' as an image of one's self in cyber-realities was coined by Neal Stephenson in the book Snow Crash. Which if you haven't read, is worth the read.

I also recommend "Snow Crash". But there is some controversy over who first used the term "avatar" in its VR sense.
Here's a page (pilot project for the OED) listing citations for SF terms: http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf.shtml

[Craig R. Arko]

Ah, the thread that wouldn't die. :D

If you folks get the citation sorted out, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

Can't be too old to relearn things... :cool:

[mervTormel]

$ dict avatar

...

From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:

avatar
n 1: a new embodiment of a familiar idea; "the incarnation of
evil"; "the very avatar of cunning" [syn: {embodiment},
{incarnation}]
2: the manifestation of a Hindu deity (especially Vishnu) in
human or superhuman or animal form; "the Buddha is
considered an avatar of the god Vishnu"

From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (09 FEB 02) [foldoc]:

avatar

1. <chat, virtual reality> An {image} representing a user in a
multi-user {virtual reality} (or VR-like, in the case of
{Palace}) space.

2. (CMU, Tektronix) {root}, {superuser}. There are quite a
few {Unix} computers on which the name of the superuser
account is "avatar" rather than "root". This quirk was
originated by a {CMU} hacker who disliked the term
"superuser", and was propagated through an ex-CMU hacker at
{Tektronix}.

[{Jargon File}]

(1997-09-14)
...

[Roy Vincent]

Originally posted by nkuvu
I don't see a problem with avatars... but some of the arguments against them seem a little weak.


I agree--though nkuvu's position was more qualified than what I presented.

The avatars are fun. A bit of shape and colour. A little individuality--as also allowed in some of the crazy-nice user names we see. Sometimes an implied message. Sometimes a picture of the person posting (or a movie star fake!). One can change the avatars and make them match one's mood or the times.

Forums such as these can be dull and unimaginative without a bit of good natured permissiveness. They should not look as if they are run by administrators who favour priestly seriousness above all. One can aim at seriously helpful work but also enjoy a context that manifests both some laid back attitudes and some human sparkle.

I'm sorry the higher-ups here seem so opposed to avatars. New administrators, I know, are often more into the "No" mode than the "Yes" mode. But there's always the possibility of a change of heart with the passing of time. I'll hope for that regarding this little business of the avatars.