video card for quicksilver

[sproggy]

I've been struggling with trying to run two monitors on a Radeon 7000 for at least a year now and I'm fed up. With Panther 10.3.5 and a 2001 quicksilver 733, 1500 ram, life just ain't sweet. THe monitors both work, but things become so slow even taking a sample with the clone tool in photoshop requires a slight pause. In fact, i thought for a long time i had bad ram (still sometimes think that!). Anyway, my question has perhaps two parts: 1) Which card is going to give me enough ram to power both monitors with quick refresh -i've been looking at Radeon 9000 and 9800 but don't understand the difference besides the 200 dollar difference. Bear in mind that this is not for gaming but my whole computer has been a dog while waiting for screen to redraw).
2) the second part of the question: can i later move this card to a G5 and avoid having to spend another $400 or so bucks to buy a high end card with the G5? I see that the 9800 Pro Special Edition says for G5 only -is that true? I would spend the extra bucks if i knew that in 6 months it didn't all go to waste on buying a G5. Incidentally, my quicksilver has 4 PCI slots AND 1 AGP slot and i have two CRT monitors, one 19 Lacie and an old 13 power computing(?!).
Tanks alought, S

[trevor]

The 9800 is well worth the extra money for you over the 9000. Don't get the 9800 Special Edition--yes that really is only for the G5s, and it will also get confusing attaching all the adapters to get the Special Edition working with your two CRTs.

Also don't get an OEM 9800 Pro on ebay or similar.

You want the 9800 Pro (Retail Box) Mac Edition with 128 MB of memory. This card is compatible with your QS and also with the PowerMac G5. It will work with your two CRTs. It has plenty of memory for your purposes. It is fast.

Trevor

[sproggy]

Thanks Trevor for the reply. I figured more money probably meant better performance...unfortunately. Incidentally, if you have time to reply and the inkling, is it possible for a slow video card to seemingly wreak havoc with your system, to the point you want to chuck the whole thing out the window? Can the video card go into overload where it just sort of stops and you have broken squares of images scattered about the desktop? I've had that experience and am hoping it is the card...
thanks, S

[trevor]

That wouldn't be due to a slow video card, although it could be due to a failing video card or a problem with a video card driver. But no matter how slow, a video card that is working properly will not have broken squares of images.

Trevor

[sproggy]

thanks Trevor. I'm going to go for it and i'll reply in about 3 weeks to tell you the results (i'm going to be away from the comp for awhile). Your help is greatly appreciated....
S

[Raven]

Also one thing to mention... The Radeon 7000 not only has a smaller amount of memory, but it also does not have the same bandwith as newer cards do. Also, the memory is slower and the gpu much less performant. I've actually had faster results on a G3 with a Radeon PCI card, with one screen in the card and one in the original monitor connect than with a G4 with one Radeon card with both monitors plugged in. The simple reason for this is that I was using two separate GPUs, one for each monitor... They did not need to be very powerfull, just to have one monitor for one gpu... But new cards such as the Radeon 9800 have sufficient power to run both those monitors a the same time since it was actually meant to run this way.

[sproggy]

Actually, i just downloaded the new drivers for Radeon (just to be sure I had the right one) and hooked up again the second monitor (and reinstalled the Radeon 7000 which i had taken out. In doing so, it suddenly occured to me that i always had my main monitor hooked up to the original card that came with the computer and the smaller one that i use for palettes hooked up to the Radeon 7000. THat doesn't seem right.... So I now hooked up the 19" to the Radeon and the 13" to the original card. Things seem snappier although i just did this 5 minutes ago -could be an illusion. But in so thinking, what happens with a 9800? Do i hook up both monitors to the 9800 or the big monitor to the 9800 and the little one to the original card? Or do i not even use the original card and leave the 7000 in and use that for the little monitor? Geeeez so many questions. Can you take out the original card? Should you? Remember my main point is to have two monitors for work flow, one for palettes and one for the image.

AS i type right now, it sure seems a lot snapper..... As far as the broken up images I talked about before, as the screen redraws, it redraws in square section, somtimes freezing with only half the new screen withdrawn and all the squares overlapping, or it appears without the text.... Maybe it won't do that anymore....

[Raven]

My advice wqould be to try out the different ways of connecting both monitors as I have no G4 or Radeon 9800 to test this on

[trevor]

Quote: Originally Posted by sproggy But in so thinking, what happens with a 9800? Do i hook up both monitors to the 9800 or the big monitor to the 9800 and the little one to the original card?

Remove the original card (you'll have to to plug in the 9800, it's in the only AGP slot) and hook both monitors up to the 9800. Unplug the 7000 as well, unless you want four monitors. And if you do want 4 monitors, you'd be better off replacing the 7000 with a Radeon 9200 PCI. The 7000 is just not a very fast card. As Raven says, the original Radeon PCI card is a better card, it just doesn't support two monitors from one card like the 7000 does.

Quote: Originally Posted by sproggy Or do i not even use the original card and leave the 7000 in and use that for the little monitor? Geeeez so many questions. Can you take out the original card? Should you? Remember my main point is to have two monitors for work flow, one for palettes and one for the image.

Yes, you should remove the original card. Sell it on ebay or something. Also sell your 7000. Between the two cards, your 9800 just got a bunch cheaper. Of course, if one of your cards is having issues, you should mention that when you sell it.

Trevor

[sproggy]

Hooking up both cards to the 7000? I never did that and don't see how... I left the original card where it was and added the 7000. I have one monitor on the original and the other on the 7000. Unless there is an adaptor, there doesn't seem to be a way to hook up the two monitors on the 7000. There is another port, but i don't recognize the plug, it does not fit the monitor. You say the original card is better than the 7000, however, as I said above, I've switched the way I had the monitors hooked up, putting the main on the 7000 and the palette monitor on the original and things seem a lot snapper.
So I can sell these things on ebay, eh? I never would have thought, since technology goes out of date so quick. I'm not really sure if it's having issues. Can't imagine how much I'd take in with this ad: "old, crappy, video card for mac, probably busted, best offer."

[Aimbere]

Anyone knows about a problem with G4 733 QS working with an ATI Radeon 9600 Pro Mac & PC Edition?

I've read about it and I want to buy one but I'm not so sure....

[trevor]

Before buying, verify that that card will work in a 4x AGP slot, such as the one in your QS. The OEM ATI Radeon 9600 Pros that originally shipped in PowerMac G5s do not, and need to be modified to work in a 4x slot: http://www.techseekers.net/modules.p...wcontent&id=71

I'm not positive about the Mac&PC Edition, but it should say on the packaging whether it works in a 4x AGP.

Trevor

[Aimbere]

Trevor,

Well, I checked the specs and it said that works with AGP 4x and 8x.

http://www.ati.com/products/radeon96...mac/specs.html

But, I don't remember in what forum I've read that a user said that doesn't work on G4 733 QS ..... and why it doesn't work?

[trevor]

If the specs say that it works on an AGP 4X, then it should work on your Quicksilver just fine. Either the person on the forum got a bad card, and incorrectly attributes it to an incompatibility, or more likely they have a Radeon 9600 Pro OEM (not the Mac and PC version that you are looking at), and the OEM version of this card does not work on an AGP 4X slot without modification.

Trevor

[Aimbere]

I take a look on techseekers link that you posted and OEM version really needs some modification because the AGP 3.0 Slot.

How can I check my AGP slot configuration? There's an application for that?

[trevor]

Are you asking how to verify that your Quicksilver really has an AGP 4X slot like I said it does?

If so, you can check Apple's website for the Quicksilver 2001's specs. They are here: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=43106 Look on page 2 under "Graphics support", where it says "One of the following graphics cards, installed in a dedicated AGP 4X graphics slot:"

Or are you saying that you're not sure that you really have a Quicksilver 2001?

Trevor

[Aimbere]

Trevor,

I have a Quicksilver 2001 !! I'm sure about that!
What I want to know it information about the slot, like volt, etc....

Well, I found the user review that I read about the Radeon 9600 Mac & PC edition.....

Look at this:

Let me save you people some trouble.
1). This card does work on pc's.
2) Apple Computer has pulled it from the Apple Store
3) It does NOT work on G4 towers with the exception of the "MIRROR-DOOR Models ONLY! "
4) ATI tech support acknowledged to me that they where only able to get the card to run on a MIRROR-DOOR MODEL G4 and nothing else, yet it continues to be marketed for "AGP G4 Towers". There are no AGP cards currently manufactured for the G4 Tower. THe only card which works at this time is the Radeon 9200 (PCI). If you need an AGP card you MUST go to eBay for it. Please Believe me on this...I learned the hard way and want to save you the hassles that I went through. :-)

[Aimbere]

Hi, I found the answer.... I think that everybody NEEDS to know that!

https://support.ati.com/ics/support/...estionID=21888


737-21888: No Display using Radeon 9600 PRO PC & MAC Edition in the "Quicksilver", "Quicksilver 2002" and "Digital Audio" Power Mac G4 models



The information in this article applies to the following configurations:
Radeon® 9600 PRO PC & MAC Edition
"Quicksilver" Power Mac G4 model
"Quicksilver 2002" Power Mac G4 model
"Digital Audio" Power Mac G4 model
The Radeon 9600 Mac & PC Edition is not compatible with the "Quicksilver", "Quicksilver 2002" or the "Digital Audio" PowerMac G4. If a Radeon 9600 Mac & PC Edition board is installed in one of these systems the result is a blank display.

[trevor]

Quote: Let me save you people some trouble. 1). This card does work on pc's. 2) Apple Computer has pulled it from the Apple Store 3) It does NOT work on G4 towers with the exception of the "MIRROR-DOOR Models ONLY! " 4) ATI tech support acknowledged to me that they where only able to get the card to run on a MIRROR-DOOR MODEL G4 and nothing else, yet it continues to be marketed for "AGP G4 Towers". There are no AGP cards currently manufactured for the G4 Tower. THe only card which works at this time is the Radeon 9200 (PCI). If you need an AGP card you MUST go to eBay for it. Please Believe me on this...I learned the hard way and want to save you the hassles that I went through. :-)

Despite ATI's tech document, there are some reports on the web about people successfully installing the Radeon 9600 Mac & PC edition on a Quicksilver. For example: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/sep05/092205.html

Quote: " I saw the reader reports on 9600 Mac/PC edition cards and wanted to add my experiences. My workplace got me one for a Quicksilver G4 933MHz, and out of the box the card did not work. I tried zapping the PRAM, and reseating the card (have had issues with AGP cards in PCs being not all the way in before...) but it still did not work. Over the weekend I thought the Quicksilver didn't have an AGP 4x slot (the physical connector was an AGP universal slot), but looking at Apple hardware docs, Quicksilvers sure are 4x. We had a G5 lying around and i tried the card in that, which was somewhat amusing to install because of the AGP Pro slot. The 9600 worked fine. Hmmm. Took it back to the Quicksilver, tried it again, was still dead. I ssh'ed into the box and found that the display driver never initialized (from dmesg). Frustrated, I took the card out and put it back in one last time, but I pressed down far harder than normal and got a resounding click out of the slot. Worked fine this time. Very strange. Also strange was that when I went to put the nVidia card back into the borrowed G5 the kernel panic'ed because of a corrupted nVidia driver... but that's a different story I guess Regards, Mike "

In any event, the forum posting is definitely incorrect when claiming "There are no AGP cards currently manufactured for the G4 Tower. THe only card which works at this time is the Radeon 9200 (PCI)."

The Radeon 9800 Pro Mac Edition is currently being manufactured, is an AGP card, and works just fine in a Quicksilver. And it's a better card than the Radeon 9600.

Trevor

[tlarkin]

this is very late in the conversation, but I thought I would add it in. I never buy mac edition video cards, they are just over priced. I buy the PC version and flash the bios with a mac rom. I have successfully done this with GeForce 4 and Radeon cards in the past. It is kind of a lengthy process but I explain how it is done in this thread here:

http://forums.macosxhints.com/showth...ht=flash+video

It does require access to a PC, but in the long run you can get video cards way cheaper. I have a G4 MDD, a G4 Cube, a B&W G3, and a G4 gigabitE all with flashed cards (these are ones I have done and they still work, but I don't own the machine) and they all still run.

The cube was the hardest one, since the cube takes a specific sized AGP card to be able to be bolted down to the case. My remedy was to zip tie it, and it worked.