one FireWire HDD will mount, but two will not, why?

marcnyc · 09-12-2006, 04:50 PM

Hello,
I just bought two USB/FireWire hard drives off of ebay (this model precisely: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=150026215277 )

I can get to mount them individually with FireWire 400 but if I plug in one daisy chain the other, the first one that was mounted disappears and I am told by OS X that the device was unmounted in a not proper way.

With USB I can mount both drives.

What could the problem be?
I remember in the days of SCSI you had to have different ID's on the drives, but I thought this was resolved now with FW, right?

Any ideas?
Thanks

hayne · 09-12-2006, 04:53 PM

Sounds like a hardware problem.
What you are doing should work (and does for me with my LaCie drives).
No configuration is necessary.

But note that it is best to have the firewire drives turned off when you connect them.

voldenuit · 09-12-2006, 05:02 PM

Shouldn't happen and definitely doesn't with Oxford-chipsets. Even one Oxford and one el-cheapo Prolific chipset does work here.

Make sure to use known good cables.

Get rid of defective drives.

marcnyc · 09-12-2006, 05:10 PM

I tried having them both on or off...
the cables are the ones that came with the drives and that work when used separately.
the drives are BRAND NEW!
what should I do?
PS interestingly enough, after this happens I am completely unable to mount the FW drive, even individually, it's as if firewire didn't exist anymore! until I restart the computer...

cwtnospam · 09-12-2006, 06:34 PM

Are the power cables for both drives plugged in? You can't daisy chain them if they're drawing power from the Firewire bus.

trevor · 09-12-2006, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwtnospam


	Are the power cables for both drives plugged in? You can't daisy chain them if they're drawing power from the Firewire bus.

That's not necessarily true. If both cases together take less than the total power provided on the FireWire bus, AND the first component in the FireWire chain passes power as the FireWire spec requires for 6 pin FireWire cables, then you can daisy-chain bus-powered drives.

I'd not recommend it, since the possibility of blowing FireWire PHYs increases with both bus-powering and daisy-chaining, but it still can work.

Trevor

cwtnospam · 09-12-2006, 08:32 PM

Ok, it's technically possible, but I'm not aware of any 3.5" drives that don't draw too much power to be daisy chained without being plugged into an outlet.

trevor · 09-12-2006, 09:29 PM

Yeah, that's a good point. There are few enough 3.5" drives that can run on bus-power even by themselves, much less along with another drive on the bus.

Trevor

marcnyc · 09-12-2006, 11:17 PM

interesting conversation, but unfortunately I have to say that both drives are powered with external AC adapters...
any other ideas would be greatly appreciated as at this point I really need to see both drives and the only way I have been able to do so, so far, is by connecting one via FireWire and one via USB, which still drastically slows me down... I bought these two drives to make backups and having to copy via USB is soooooo slooooowww

voldenuit · 09-13-2006, 12:45 AM

Show us the FireWire section of System Profiler with one and both drives plugged in and the log entries related to the problem.

trevor · 09-13-2006, 02:12 AM

The reason for the problem was given by Hayne in post #2. You've got a hardware problem of some kind. Exactly what hardware problem is not yet known.

It could be the cable, or the second FireWire port that you are daisy-chaining to, or a problem with the hardware in the drives. But it's hardware not software.

Possible solutions:
1. replace FW cable,
2. buy a FireWire card (if you have a Mac with expansion slots) and don't daisy-chain
3. buy a FireWire hub and don't daisy-chain
4. get a new drive that doesn't have this problem

ozza · 09-13-2006, 09:38 AM

Do you have iSight attached to a firewire port? Whenever I have firewire problems, I disconnect iSight...works everytime.

marcnyc · 09-13-2006, 11:06 AM

Ok, so first of all I have a PowerBook, so buying cards is impossible (unless it's a PCMCIA card, but why would I if I have a FW port that's supposed to work).
I don't have iSight.
I have tried with different FW cables.
I would really like to avoid having to buy a hub, more stuff to carry around etc etc...
The drives are brand new so I don't know why they wouldn't work. I have many other FW drives which work when daisy-chained so I know it's not the computer.

The FireWire section of the System Profile shows this with no drive connected:

Code:

FireWire Bus:
  Maximum Speed:	Up to 800 Mb/sec

with the first drive connected it says:

Code:

FireWire Bus:

  Maximum Speed:	Up to 800 Mb/sec

(1394-ATAPI rev1.10):

  Manufacturer:	Prolific PL3507 Combo Device
  Model:	0x1
  GUID:	0x50770E00071002
  Maximum Speed:	Up to 400 Mb/sec
  Connection Speed:	Up to 400 Mb/sec
  Sub-units:
(1394-ATAPI rev1.10) Unit:
  Unit Software Version:	0x10483
  Unit Spec ID:	0x609E
  Firmware Revision:	0x12804
  Product Revision Level:	
  Sub-units:
(1394-ATAPI rev1.10) SBP-LUN:
  Capacity:	232.89 GB
  Removable Media:	Yes
  BSD Name:	disk1
  OS9 Drivers:	No
  S.M.A.R.T. status:	Not Supported
  Volumes:
PhotoDisk 1 (MAIN):
  Capacity:	232.76 GB
  Available:	215.64 GB
  Writable:	Yes
  File System:	Journaled HFS+
  BSD Name:	disk1s3
  Mount Point:	/Volumes/PhotoDisk 1 (MAIN)

then when I connect the second drive it says:

Code:

FireWire Bus:

  Maximum Speed:	Up to 800 Mb/sec

Unknown Device:

  Manufacturer:	Unknown
  Model:	Unknown Device
  GUID:	0x50770E00071002
  Maximum Speed:	Up to 400 Mb/sec
  Connection Speed:	Up to 400 Mb/sec

Unknown Device:

  Manufacturer:	Unknown
  Model:	Unknown Device
  GUID:	0x50770E00071002
  Maximum Speed:	Up to 400 Mb/sec
  Connection Speed:	Up to 400 Mb/sec

Does that help?
How should I interpret this?

Thanks a lot for you kind help and time. I appreciate that.

PS: One thing I will try is to daisy-chain one of those drives with one of the new drives too (I can't do it right now because I just finished doing this test and unfortunately everytime I connect both these drives I have to reboot the machine to be able to even use the FW port on my mac again).

trevor · 09-13-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:


	Ok, so first of all I have a PowerBook, so buying cards is impossible (unless it's a PCMCIA card, but why would I if I have a FW port that's supposed to work).

Because
1. You get additional bandwidth for FireWire. Having more than one 3.5" drive on a FireWire 400 bus with current speeds will easily saturate the bus. Anytime the bus is saturated, you are not at the maximum potential throughput. You already have a slow workaround of using USB, obviously you want speed. A PCMCIA FireWire card will therefore give you additional speed when using more than one drive simultaneously.

2. Your current setup is not working. A PCMCIA FireWire card may let you do what you are trying to do, and in any event is not an expensive item, so it's not as if you've lost much by trying.

Quote:


	The drives are brand new so I don't know why they wouldn't work.

The newness or oldness of the drives is inconsequential, unfortunately. The one advantage it might give you is that you might be able to return non-working drives?

Quote:


	with the first drive connected it says: Manufacturer: Prolific PL3507 Combo Device

OK. Prolific is one of the 'budget' FireWire bridge chipsets. The 'high quality' bridge chipset is made by Oxford. If you return the Prolific-based case and bought a case with an Oxford chipset, you will likely have far fewer problems.

One thing you can do if you want to keep this Prolific case is to check their website for a firmware update.

Quote:


	Unknown Device: Manufacturer: Unknown Model: Unknown Device GUID: 0x50770E00071002

This is not a good sign. You said that both of these drives are identical? Well, they aren't identical at the firmware level. This second drive has the same GUID, but doesn't have any further firmware info. It's firmware is screwed up in some way. If you just return one of them and keep the other, this is the one to return. (Although I'd personally return both and get cases with an Oxford chipset.)

Trevor

JDV · 09-13-2006, 03:29 PM

Since this seems to have been an eBay purchase, return of the drive seems unlikely, since the seller probably made no explicit claim about whether the drives would daisy chain properly. THey might not even have known that was an issue. I -did- check the Prolific website, and while they manufacture the chipset, they make no consumer products, so I don't think a firmware update from them is likely. Samsung APPEARS to be the manufacturer of the drive enclosure, if the link was accurate, so it is possible that Samsung might have some upgrade available, but i also checked their site but could not determine what model the OP might actually have, so I couldn't tell if they had any updates.

I agree that the PMCIA firewire card is probably the best option with the least financial exposure. I rather expect it has something to do with drive termination that gets messed up when daisy chained. A Fantom drive I have explicitly warned against daisy chaining their drive, although they were specifically adamant about not using it with video capture devices. I believe the poster said that both drives worked individually, just not when connected together. Hence, it seems unlikely that the firmware on either drive is screwed up, except to the extent that it obviously doesn't like being chained.

Joe VanZandt

trevor · 09-13-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDV


	I -did- check the Prolific website, and while they manufacture the chipset, they make no consumer products, so I don't think a firmware update from them is likely.

No, here's a direct link to the Prolific PL3507b firmware update released on 19 May 2006: http://www.prolific.com.tw/support/f...7B_d042006.zip
Note that this is likely to require a computer running Windows.

Here's a link to the page showing various Prolific PL3507 firmware updates: http://www.prolific.com.tw/eng/downloads.asp?ID=44

Quote:


	I believe the poster said that both drives worked individually, just not when connected together. Hence, it seems unlikely that the firmware on either drive is screwed up, except to the extent that it obviously doesn't like being chained.

Yes, that's true and a good point. However, the firmware is not reporting itself properly on the bus, so there's SOMETHING wrong somewhere with that drive even when not daisy-chaining. Perhaps the firmware was only partially updated?

Trevor

marcnyc · 09-13-2006, 05:05 PM

Actually that part of the system profiler showing the drive as unknown (the part that Trevor quoted) ONLY comes up when the drives are daisy-chained (hence, get unmounted). Separately the two drives do not show up as unkown.

trevor · 09-13-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcnyc


	Actually that part of the system profiler showing the drive as unknown (the part that Trevor quoted) ONLY comes up when the drives are daisy-chained (hence, get unmounted). Separately the two drives do not show up as unkown.

OK, I misunderstood that. Can you also show us the System Profiler report on the second drive when it is the only device on FireWire?

Trevor

JDV · 09-13-2006, 05:11 PM

That was my point, but Trevor may also be right that the firmware can be updated, but probably not from a Mac. My point that Prolific didn't actually make the hardware enclosure may well be irrelevant, but you might to well to try to contact the manufacturer of the enclosure to see if they know of the problem and recommend a firmware upgrade, if you don't want to try adding another firewire port.

Joe VanZandt

marcnyc · 09-13-2006, 05:59 PM

I am trying to track down the manufacturer but had no luck yet...

By the way, I tried daisy-chaining one of my other FW drives to one of these drives and it worked, so the problem is only between these two together...

bummer... I hope I can find a solution...

09-12-2006, 04:50 PM	#1
marcnyc All Star Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 599	one FireWire HDD will mount, but two will not, why? Hello, I just bought two USB/FireWire hard drives off of ebay (this model precisely: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=150026215277 ) I can get to mount them individually with FireWire 400 but if I plug in one daisy chain the other, the first one that was mounted disappears and I am told by OS X that the device was unmounted in a not proper way. With USB I can mount both drives. What could the problem be? I remember in the days of SCSI you had to have different ID's on the drives, but I thought this was resolved now with FW, right? Any ideas? Thanks

09-12-2006, 09:29 PM	#8
trevor Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Boulder, CO USA Posts: 16,715	Yeah, that's a good point. There are few enough 3.5" drives that can run on bus-power even by themselves, much less along with another drive on the bus. Trevor __________________ Eight steps to Internet unpopularity - Chris Breen.

09-13-2006, 02:12 AM	#11
trevor Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Boulder, CO USA Posts: 16,715	The reason for the problem was given by Hayne in post #2. You've got a hardware problem of some kind. Exactly what hardware problem is not yet known. It could be the cable, or the second FireWire port that you are daisy-chaining to, or a problem with the hardware in the drives. But it's hardware not software. Possible solutions: 1. replace FW cable, 2. buy a FireWire card (if you have a Mac with expansion slots) and don't daisy-chain 3. buy a FireWire hub and don't daisy-chain 4. get a new drive that doesn't have this problem __________________ Eight steps to Internet unpopularity - Chris Breen.

09-13-2006, 11:06 AM	#13
marcnyc All Star Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 599	Ok, so first of all I have a PowerBook, so buying cards is impossible (unless it's a PCMCIA card, but why would I if I have a FW port that's supposed to work). I don't have iSight. I have tried with different FW cables. I would really like to avoid having to buy a hub, more stuff to carry around etc etc... The drives are brand new so I don't know why they wouldn't work. I have many other FW drives which work when daisy-chained so I know it's not the computer. The FireWire section of the System Profile shows this with no drive connected: Code: FireWire Bus: Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec with the first drive connected it says: Code: FireWire Bus: Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec (1394-ATAPI rev1.10): Manufacturer: Prolific PL3507 Combo Device Model: 0x1 GUID: 0x50770E00071002 Maximum Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec Connection Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec Sub-units: (1394-ATAPI rev1.10) Unit: Unit Software Version: 0x10483 Unit Spec ID: 0x609E Firmware Revision: 0x12804 Product Revision Level: Sub-units: (1394-ATAPI rev1.10) SBP-LUN: Capacity: 232.89 GB Removable Media: Yes BSD Name: disk1 OS9 Drivers: No S.M.A.R.T. status: Not Supported Volumes: PhotoDisk 1 (MAIN): Capacity: 232.76 GB Available: 215.64 GB Writable: Yes File System: Journaled HFS+ BSD Name: disk1s3 Mount Point: /Volumes/PhotoDisk 1 (MAIN) then when I connect the second drive it says: Code: FireWire Bus: Maximum Speed: Up to 800 Mb/sec Unknown Device: Manufacturer: Unknown Model: Unknown Device GUID: 0x50770E00071002 Maximum Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec Connection Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec Unknown Device: Manufacturer: Unknown Model: Unknown Device GUID: 0x50770E00071002 Maximum Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec Connection Speed: Up to 400 Mb/sec Does that help? How should I interpret this? Thanks a lot for you kind help and time. I appreciate that. PS: One thing I will try is to daisy-chain one of those drives with one of the new drives too (I can't do it right now because I just finished doing this test and unfortunately everytime I connect both these drives I have to reboot the machine to be able to even use the FW port on my mac again).

09-13-2006, 03:29 PM	#15
JDV Hall of Famer Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicago, Illinois Posts: 3,194	Since this seems to have been an eBay purchase, return of the drive seems unlikely, since the seller probably made no explicit claim about whether the drives would daisy chain properly. THey might not even have known that was an issue. I -did- check the Prolific website, and while they manufacture the chipset, they make no consumer products, so I don't think a firmware update from them is likely. Samsung APPEARS to be the manufacturer of the drive enclosure, if the link was accurate, so it is possible that Samsung might have some upgrade available, but i also checked their site but could not determine what model the OP might actually have, so I couldn't tell if they had any updates. I agree that the PMCIA firewire card is probably the best option with the least financial exposure. I rather expect it has something to do with drive termination that gets messed up when daisy chained. A Fantom drive I have explicitly warned against daisy chaining their drive, although they were specifically adamant about not using it with video capture devices. I believe the poster said that both drives worked individually, just not when connected together. Hence, it seems unlikely that the firmware on either drive is screwed up, except to the extent that it obviously doesn't like being chained. Joe VanZandt Last edited by JDV; 09-13-2006 at 03:31 PM.

09-12-2006, 04:53 PM	#2
hayne Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 29,278	Sounds like a hardware problem. What you are doing should work (and does for me with my LaCie drives). No configuration is necessary. But note that it is best to have the firewire drives turned off when you connect them. __________________ hayne.net/macosx.html

09-12-2006, 05:02 PM	#3
voldenuit Hall of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Old Europe Posts: 4,896	Shouldn't happen and definitely doesn't with Oxford-chipsets. Even one Oxford and one el-cheapo Prolific chipset does work here. Make sure to use known good cables. Get rid of defective drives.

09-12-2006, 05:10 PM	#4
marcnyc All Star Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 599	I tried having them both on or off... the cables are the ones that came with the drives and that work when used separately. the drives are BRAND NEW! what should I do? PS interestingly enough, after this happens I am completely unable to mount the FW drive, even individually, it's as if firewire didn't exist anymore! until I restart the computer...

09-12-2006, 06:34 PM	#5
cwtnospam League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 8,182	Are the power cables for both drives plugged in? You can't daisy chain them if they're drawing power from the Firewire bus.

09-12-2006, 08:32 PM	#7
cwtnospam League Commissioner Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 8,182	Ok, it's technically possible, but I'm not aware of any 3.5" drives that don't draw too much power to be daisy chained without being plugged into an outlet.

09-12-2006, 11:17 PM	#9
marcnyc All Star Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 599	interesting conversation, but unfortunately I have to say that both drives are powered with external AC adapters... any other ideas would be greatly appreciated as at this point I really need to see both drives and the only way I have been able to do so, so far, is by connecting one via FireWire and one via USB, which still drastically slows me down... I bought these two drives to make backups and having to copy via USB is soooooo slooooowww

09-13-2006, 12:45 AM	#10
voldenuit Hall of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Old Europe Posts: 4,896	Show us the FireWire section of System Profiler with one and both drives plugged in and the log entries related to the problem.

09-13-2006, 09:38 AM	#12
ozza Prospect Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2	Do you have iSight attached to a firewire port? Whenever I have firewire problems, I disconnect iSight...works everytime.

09-13-2006, 05:05 PM	#17
marcnyc All Star Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 599	Actually that part of the system profiler showing the drive as unknown (the part that Trevor quoted) ONLY comes up when the drives are daisy-chained (hence, get unmounted). Separately the two drives do not show up as unkown.

09-13-2006, 05:11 PM	#19
JDV Hall of Famer Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicago, Illinois Posts: 3,194	That was my point, but Trevor may also be right that the firmware can be updated, but probably not from a Mac. My point that Prolific didn't actually make the hardware enclosure may well be irrelevant, but you might to well to try to contact the manufacturer of the enclosure to see if they know of the problem and recommend a firmware upgrade, if you don't want to try adding another firewire port. Joe VanZandt

09-13-2006, 05:59 PM	#20
marcnyc All Star Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 599	I am trying to track down the manufacturer but had no luck yet... By the way, I tried daisy-chaining one of my other FW drives to one of these drives and it worked, so the problem is only between these two together... bummer... I hope I can find a solution...

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